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| Acmlm's Board - I3 Archive - World Affairs/Debate - Christianity, abortion, and the idea of punishment for sex |
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Arwon Bazu                  Since: 11-18-05 From: Randwick, Sydney, NSW, Australia Last post: 6296 days Last view: 6296 days |
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In the US and El Salvador at present there are a couple of developments in the abortion debate free-for-all which make me question the idea that the wingnuts are all about the "sanctity of life" in their opposition to abortion. It's recently been pointed out to me that many wingnuts seem to be far more concerned about the concept of punishing people for sex than the protection of life... it is a concept interwoven in the deepest parts of Christianity.
It has a long history, too--there was a time when anaesthetic in childbirth was seen as a sin because it let a woman avoid some of the punishment of Eve. It's right at the core of Original Sin... even if it doesn't get spoken of much these days, it's still there and it's been shaping the cultural traditions of Christianity for 2 millennia. Historically it's obviously been very important to justifying and reinforcing the subordination of women, even in the time of Mark Twain people were flat-out saying anasthesia in childbirth is a sin because it is attempting to avoid the Original Sin punishment handed down to women. It's simple really: Having sex and not risking pregnancy -- the pain and discomfort and even death that can result from it -- means you're bypassing the punishment God handed down for Eve's sins. Risk-free sex is nothing less than the complete rejection of God's punishment... and it terrifies these people. Very very few say it openly but you can detect it simmering below the surface of all the stuff about protecting the sanctity of life. How else can one explain the following?: 1: The Plan B contraception pill being available over the counter has become controversial. This is a pill that can be used to temporarily prevent the release of unfertilised eggs, so that after unprotected sex a woman can ensure that her ovaries dont drop an egg at the wrong moment. There is no zygote, no fetus, no embryo, no babies. Any claim that this argument is about the life of a baby is null and void, it's not even valid under "life begins at fertilization" because there's no fertilisation. It prevents conception and some people still find it abhorrent. 2. A South Dakota legislator, presumably one of the architects of the ban on virtually all abortions intended to orchestrate a supreme court challenge against Roe vs Wade, has officially stated that the case for abortion is solely: raped christian virgins. Why only christians? Because they had sin forced upon them, so she has no need to suffer the punishment of Eve. As for everyone else? Well, they've already gotta suffer because of original sin.. Only a woman who has never choosen to have sex is allowed to be kept from the "consequences". 3. Pharmacists have denied women vitamins and antibiotics related to abortion. Denying prescriptions, as well as being a fundamental violation of the damn job of a pharmacist, is obviously quite dangerous to the women in question. For these people, it's not about life, it's about women suffering the consequences of sex. For that matter, you have some of these people opposing the free or mandatory application of the Chlamydia vaccination... because it might encourage sex. Better that people die of uterine cancer. 4. Finally we have El Salvador. Some fairly extreme anti-abortion laws have been in effect there for about 8 years. No rape clause, no health clause, nothing. Women can be jailed for up to 50 years if they have an abortion, with no exceptions for things involving the danger of death in the mother. There is a specific law-enforcement aparatus to police this ban, involving forensic vagina specialists who treat the woman's body as a crime scene, and something called vaginal search warrants. They've been known to handcuff comatose patients to their hospital beds. The ban and its enforcement gets most horrific in cases such as when a woman has something called an "ectopic pregnancy", doctors have to wait until the fallopian tube bursts before they are legally allowed to intervene to save her life, and face imprisonment themselves if they intervene to save her life beforehand. Is this about Life? No. It is however, from a philosphical point of view, quite consistant with the view that life begins at conception and the zygote has all the rights to protection from harm that this entails. Much moreso than the more normal western view with all the nuances about rape and health concerns which are kind of hard to square with "abortion is murder" Anyways, leaving the horrors of El Salvador hanging, as both as a graphic counterpoint to anti-abortion gross-out screeds and an illustration of the consequences of a pure "abortion is murder" stance, the point I'm trying to make is that a lot of anti-abortion feelings go far beyond any idea of protecting life or anything like that. How wide-spread is this idea about punishment for sex? Impossible to say, but the idea is very deeply ingrained in the Christian religion, after all. Moreover, this moral battle has been going on for a long time... as I return to the examples I opened this post: Just look at the controversy in times-past over condoms or anaesthesia in child-birth. Their echoes are certainly still reverberating through the rhetoric of the wingnuts. |
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C:/xkas bio.asm Compiled ASM code    Since: 11-17-05 Last post: 6296 days Last view: 6295 days |
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| personnaly, I believe that religion won't be able to make abortion(or stem cell BTW) illegal, why? simple, they didn't manage to stop medecine(when they it was immoral 'cause it was opposing to God will) and the dish washer(when they said it was immoral 'cause it keep women from doing the labor God ask them to do) | |||
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Deleted User Banned    Since: 05-08-06 Last post: None Last view: 6296 days |
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Originally posted by Bio I absolutly agree. Religion will NOT make anything illegal, and it won't influence decisions. People won't allow it, and that is that.  |
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Rom Manic Since: 12-18-05 From: Detroit, WHAT?! Last post: 6295 days Last view: 6295 days |
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| I think the whole punishment for sex thing is a little twisted.
Firstly, because sex can also be a fun recreational activity, not just for procreation. It feels good, so why wouldn't you want to experience it? Oh, one could argue that it's to make the whole procreating thing not feel so bad, but hold on, I thought we were supposed to experience pain for Eve's sin? Avoiding having to endure Eve's punishment isn't immoral either, it's being responsible for yourself and for your partner. Some people can't afford a child, some people don't want STD's (If not all people), and some people have other reasons for using a contraceptive. That might not have been the case back in the day, but it is certainly the case nowadays. |
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Skydude Armos Knight  Since: 02-18-06 From: Stanford, CA Last post: 6568 days Last view: 6568 days |
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| I plan on going through and skewering each of these one by one later, but for now, I really have to say, you're really stretching things to put your own incredibly biased spin on things. Namely your "but you can detect it simmering below the surface of all the stuff about protecting the sanctity of life" really shows just how little evidence you have of it, and this is just your way of slander (or if we are to be technical, libel) in a style that I've seen far too often. Basically, you say "I have no evidence to prove what I'm saying, but if you break things apart and look at it in exactly the way I tell you to, you can sort of see it. If you squint a bit. Kind of." | |||
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C:/xkas bio.asm Compiled ASM code Since: 11-17-05 Last post: 6296 days Last view: 6295 days |
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Originally posted by Skyon actualy, even today, religion influence a lot of political decisions, but even during the dark age, they didn't manage to stop scientifist to innovate stuff(even if they were killing every of them  ) |
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Vyper Kodondo Raging Venom  Since: 11-18-05 From: Final Fantasy Fire Last post: 6312 days Last view: 6312 days |
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| If you spread your legs/stick it in, it's your fault, and you have to suffer for it. I agree with the bible 100% in this respect.
Personally, I believe that abortion should be illegal except in the case of rape and/or incest. But furthermore, I believe in freedom of choice, so I'm divided on the issue :/ |
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Zweih Bronto Burt  Since: 11-18-05 Last post: 6305 days Last view: 6297 days |
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| Personally, I am pro-choice, and am appaled at the cruel laws enforced in EL Salvador. It's disgusting how they treat women there in terms of pregnancy and sex (how they treat women morally I presume is horrid because of the way these laws are enforced). Christianity has gone way out of hand, and on another personal level, I hate it. Sure, I'm a prostestant, but the way people are using Religion as a leverage in state affairs is retarded. Seperation of Church and State need's to be enforced.
Danielle edit: layout removed. (edited by Danielle on 04-18-06 06:06 PM) |
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geeogree Red Cheep-cheep Since: 11-17-05 Last post: 6310 days Last view: 6295 days |
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| if people had morals to begin with then we wouldn't be having this discussion | |||
Skreename Giant Red Paratroopa Since: 11-18-05 Last post: 6301 days Last view: 6295 days |
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Originally posted by Vyper Am I the only one who finds it weird to hear something like that coming from you? Given how much you tend to talk/suggest to people about doing just that... Originally posted by geeogree They do. Your problem is that a few of theirs differ from yours. Now... I need to ask: Who has the right ones? I'm personally COMPLETELY pro-choice. As long as it hasn't been born yet, it's still pretty much just a parasite. If the mother's life is threatened, it's an even more significant event. You can get a new fetus, it's kinda hard to bring back a dead (fully-developed) human being. Of course, if someone gets pregnant when they're still not out of high school or something (barring rape or something of the sort), I'll look down on them just as much if they get it aborted, have it adopted, or keep it. |
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Vyper Kodondo Raging Venom Since: 11-18-05 From: Final Fantasy Fire Last post: 6312 days Last view: 6312 days |
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Originally posted by SkreenameI have no problem with sex at all, so long as you're ready to deal with the consequences. If someone wants to have sex, let them. Just don't come crying to me when your girlfriend is pregnant. Does that make it easier to understand?Originally posted by Vyper |
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C:/xkas bio.asm Compiled ASM code Since: 11-17-05 Last post: 6296 days Last view: 6295 days |
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| many person spend their life only to make sex more risk-free, Its true morality to do our best to keep other human to suffer | |||
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Sinfjotle Lordly? No, not quite.  Since: 11-17-05 From: Kansas Last post: 6297 days Last view: 6295 days |
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Originally posted by Skreename For. The. Mother. Fucking. Win. I don't care what your religion says, I'm not following it if it is against my beliefs. If my beliefs are "I come before this fetus that isn't even a person yet and doesn't have rights", then you damn well better respect it, because it isn't harming you. |
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Arwon Bazu Since: 11-18-05 From: Randwick, Sydney, NSW, Australia Last post: 6296 days Last view: 6296 days |
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Originally posted by Skydude I am by no means accusing all anti-abortion folks. Just some of the more drooling and out-there wingnuts. And Vyper, apparently. The idea that some people believe sex needs to be punished and their abortion views are closely associated with this is, I don't think, debatable. (edited by Arwon on 04-18-06 09:24 PM) |
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Vyper Kodondo Raging Venom Since: 11-18-05 From: Final Fantasy Fire Last post: 6312 days Last view: 6312 days |
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| I'm a drooling out-there wingnut? AWESOME! | |||
Silvershield   580  Since: 11-19-05 From: Emerson, New Jersey Last post: 6307 days Last view: 6295 days |
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Originally posted by SkreenameGo tell that pregnant mother - the one who actually wants her child, not the one who's contemplating murdering it - that her baby-to-be is a parasite. Sure, it might meet your technical criteria to be defined as such, but that's a gross (and frankly, offensive) oversimplification. Originally posted by SkreenameYour logic fails. You can get a "new" fully-developed human being just as easily as you can get a "new" fetus. Just as it's kinda hard to bring back a dead adult person, so is it a bit difficult to resurrect an aborted fetus. Each of the two is a unique creature both psychologically and genetically; it's no less impossible to create an identical replacement of one than it is the other. Originally posted by DracoonI'm not asking you to follow any specific doctrine of my church, but I would be a failure as a Christian and as a human being if I did not believe that my own carefully-examined morality cannot and should not apply universally. You don't have to believe in Jesus - hell, you don't even have to respect him (because so many people find that so difficult to do) - but I would personally act to "enforce" my beliefs on others insomuch as those specific beliefs that I seek to spread are precepts that humanity at large would do well to recognize. My stance against abortion is not born of Christian values, though it certainly falls in line with the view of the Church. Instead, I am anti-abortion because I personally value human life at all stages of development. |
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Vyper Kodondo Raging Venom Since: 11-18-05 From: Final Fantasy Fire Last post: 6312 days Last view: 6312 days |
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Originally posted by SilvershieldYou sir, win at lifeOriginally posted by SkreenameGo tell that pregnant mother - the one who actually wants her child, not the one who's contemplating murdering it - that her baby-to-be is a parasite. Sure, it might meet your technical criteria to be defined as such, but that's a gross (and frankly, offensive) oversimplification.  |
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Silvershield 580 Since: 11-19-05 From: Emerson, New Jersey Last post: 6307 days Last view: 6295 days |
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I'm glad somebody else replied so quickly, so that I can actually respond to the original topic without having to go back and edit my post...
Sex is the natural animal act that leads to the perpetuation of a species, and isn't the "dirty" thing many of the religious tend to make it out to be. Or, to be more accurate, that many of the religious' critics say that the religious make it out to be. But that's a different story. Anyhow, there is no punishment for intercourse, beyond the chance to become pregnant. And that's certainly not a punishment. Nor is childbirth a punishment as much as it is an unfortunately painful experience that is a product of the human anatomy. The female human is certainly meant to pass an infant through the birth canal, just as the infant is designed to fit through that space (considering how the bones of the skull are not fully fused and can compress to some degree), but it is a far from painless process. Most mothers, though, will profess that the pain is the necessary and acceptable price for the end product. |
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Vyper Kodondo Raging Venom Since: 11-18-05 From: Final Fantasy Fire Last post: 6312 days Last view: 6312 days |
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| And, from what I've heard, most women totally forget the pain after they see their newborn baby. | |||
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Silvershield 580 Since: 11-19-05 From: Emerson, New Jersey Last post: 6307 days Last view: 6295 days |
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Originally posted by VyperYep, that's what I'm saying. The pain of childbirth is not some punishment of Eve's carried over to all women everywhere, but a consequence of basic anatomy. And, horrific as that pain is - not that I have, nor ever will, personally experience it - you'd be hard-pressed to find a mother holding her newborn who would not do it all over again. |
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| Acmlm's Board - I3 Archive - World Affairs/Debate - Christianity, abortion, and the idea of punishment for sex |
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