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| Acmlm's Board - I3 Archive - World Affairs/Debate - Hm? |
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Jomb Deddorokku                   Since: 12-03-05 From: purgatory Last post: 6298 days Last view: 6298 days |
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| Though i normally lean significantly to the Left on most issues, i think i'm more to the center on this one. Illegal immigrants mainly benefit rich people, in my view, as their cheap labor allows the rich business owners to get even richer while it can totally screw the little guy. If they were coming here and insisting on fair wages and joining unions and such it would'nt be such a problem. Sure, if you are rich or have a college degree you may actually be benefitted in some way by cheaper goods, but there are millions of Americans who dont have any of that, and many of them are'nt lazy dead-beats, they are poor working class people who are already busting their ass for low wages, driving the wages down even lower will hurt them, maybe even drive them to welfare. For many of these people getting an education is simply not an option, they may be barely scraping by right now and not be able to afford it, or simply lack the abilities to get a degree. Just because all of us here are total nerds and could easily get a degree does'nt mean everybody out there is up to it. That does'nt necessarily make them worthless people. Actually we need these people to do the unskilled labor, or we previously needed them after illegals come in and take their jobs. So what happens to them then? Welfare, which costs the system even further, especially because the people who took their jobs may not be paying taxes. What the minimum wage is has nothing to do with it, because in all reality the minimum wage isn't a living wage. Have you ever tried to live independantly on only a minimum wage job? Good luck with that, you'd end up sleeping under a bridge and dumpster diving.
I dont think making the illegal immigrants into felons is the answer. I think we need to make the process to gain citizenship faster and more reasonable, but at the same time actually punish businesses who hire illegal immigrants in such a way that they wont do it again. |
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emcee Red Super Koopa   Since: 11-20-05 Last post: 6296 days Last view: 6295 days |
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| Let me see if I follow your logic: Illegal immigrants don't pay taxes, they drive the cost of labor down, take American jobs, and if they attempt to obtain documentation, they should be deported for being illegal.
That makes no sense. There's always going to be illegal immigrants. And as long as they can't obtain legal documentation, they'll continue to do cheap under the table work, which could be done by Americans for much more, and that can drive down labor costs, and without paying any taxes. If they can easily get legal documentation, they can get normal taxed jobs, that pays normal wages, meaning it won't drive wages down, and there would be no more incentive to hire a Mexican over an American, and since they would have proper documentation, they wouldn't even be illegal anymore. Problem solved. |
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Vyper Kodondo Raging Venom  Since: 11-18-05 From: Final Fantasy Fire Last post: 6313 days Last view: 6313 days |
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Originally posted by emceeGAH! It's not about the fact that they have jobs. It's about the fact they are illegal. They suck up our social security, our free education, our healthcare, etc. Things that are paid for by people who actually pay taxes. That is the issue here. Remember last monday? When they protested? All those illegals were out on the streets striking. Did anything stop running? No. Legals stepped up to the plate. |
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Sinfjotle Lordly? No, not quite.  Since: 11-17-05 From: Kansas Last post: 6297 days Last view: 6295 days |
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Originally posted by emcee Crossed off the parts I think is wrong. Also, they can't obtain documentation, etc, they should've done it in their own country instead of causing extra problems in ours. It's protocol sir, you need to follow it so things will run smoothly and won't be a mess. |
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emcee Red Super Koopa Since: 11-20-05 Last post: 6296 days Last view: 6295 days |
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Originally posted by Dracoon They can't obtain documentation in their own country Or any country. The laws are set up so you have to already have money to legally reside the US. Originally posted by Vyper Yes, I know that's the issue. You're completely missing the point. They're illegal because they don't have the option of becoming legal. So they can't pay taxes. If we let them become legal, they can pay taxes. |
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Sinfjotle Lordly? No, not quite. Since: 11-17-05 From: Kansas Last post: 6297 days Last view: 6295 days |
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| Ok, so we let them become legal, how do you propose we do it? It's hypocritical to call something a crime and reward people for it.
They would need to get documentation upon entering America, not coming here illegally and then demanding citizenship. |
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Vyper Kodondo Raging Venom Since: 11-18-05 From: Final Fantasy Fire Last post: 6313 days Last view: 6313 days |
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Originally posted by emceeOriginally posted by DracoonThey can't become legal? ARE YOU STUPID OR SOMETHING? Many, many mexicans get legal passes to the US. Get a Visa, a Green Card, a Passport, something!Originally posted by Vyper |
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Young Guru Snifit  Since: 11-18-05 From: Notre Dame, IN Last post: 6302 days Last view: 6295 days |
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Originally posted by Snow Tomato One of the most inteligent things said here. Nobody seems to realize that this is the only long term way to curb immigration to the US from Mexico. And our policies of free trade are doing nothing to help improve the Mexican economy. Free trade is going to destroy whatever farm economy they might have because a few US farmers will buy up the cheap land and use the technology we have to make more crops (which probably won't all be used to keep grain prices high) for less money and basically make almost every Mexican farmer jobless. We need to actually enact policy that helps Mexico (and the US) in the long term and not the short. Originally posted by Mattp From my experience there are a lot of US citizens that do manual labor. It is true that a lot of Mexican immigrants do manual labor, but there are also plenty of non-Mexican immigrant US citizens that do manual labor, just go to factories, warehouses, and other such places. Certain regions of the US have a large immigrant work force, but there are plenty of places that do not. |
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Vyper Kodondo Raging Venom Since: 11-18-05 From: Final Fantasy Fire Last post: 6313 days Last view: 6313 days |
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| ...or congress could get off their lazy asses and have a fence built and increase border security. Problem solved.
Too bad everyone's afraid to lose the hispanic vote. It's stupid, really. Only 3% of all voters in 2004 indicated they were of hispanic descent. Since when did that 3% make a difference? That's right, never. |
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Sinfjotle Lordly? No, not quite. Since: 11-17-05 From: Kansas Last post: 6297 days Last view: 6295 days |
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| The 2004 presidential elections it could've. | |||
windwaker Ninji i'm not judgemental, i'm cynical Lonely People of the World, Unite! Since: 12-27-05 Last post: 6325 days Last view: 6303 days |
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Originally posted by Vyper Why do I even need to post here when you do my job (albeit less eloquently)? Originally posted by Dracoon First true thing you said all thread. Originally posted by Dracoon If the US government cared about being hypocritical, it would commit suicide. If it was a thing that could commit suicide. |
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emcee Red Super Koopa Since: 11-20-05 Last post: 6296 days Last view: 6295 days |
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Originally posted by Dracoon We need a new class of work visa (not citizenship) that doesn't require the holder be a professional or in a managerial position, and doesn't require large processing fees. This of course doesn't deal with the 11 to 12 million illegal immigrants already here. Well, we obviously can't just round them all up an deport them. It's economically unfeasible, would cause widespread civil unrest, and they would likely come right back anyway. The only reasonable solution is to give these people amnesty so they can obtain legal documentation, and get legitimate jobs. Once it becomes possible for the average dirt poor Mexican to easily obtain legal document from within Mexico, illegal immigrant would likely all but cease. Originally posted by Vyper You should read up on US immigration laws and the Mexican economy. (edited by emcee on 04-18-06 05:12 AM) |
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Arwon Bazu Since: 11-18-05 From: Randwick, Sydney, NSW, Australia Last post: 6297 days Last view: 6296 days |
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Originally posted by Vyper Two things: No it isn't. Second: Virtually everyone does. I defy you to find me a significant number of second-generation immigrants who do not speak English. As for first-gen, that's just how it works, not every first-gen immigrant will ever learn the language of their new country with any real success. Even when there's serious effort, any language is difficult to learn with fluency, especially in adulthood. You're going to end up una nación bilingüe. You practically are already, but so fucking what? How does that hurt you in even the slightest way? The language thing really isn't an issue, and besides, Spanish is a great language, it has a certain... yo no se que. ... Finally, as a general point, I think blaming the shitty employment conditions at the bottom end of the American labour market on immigrants, illegal or otherwise, is insane and wrong, as it has been every other time through US history that the idea has raised its ugly head. |
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Billiards Koopa Red Paratroopa  Since: 04-21-06 From: Far away from a carnival, one ride tried to kill me (no lie) Last post: 6502 days Last view: 6502 days |
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Originally posted by ArwonOriginally posted by Vyper For the morons who can't speak Spanish, he said A bilinqual Nation, and It has a certain "I don't know what" Dickwads. While I'm speaking Soanish, what do you think about the Anthem in Spanish? |
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Arwon Bazu Since: 11-18-05 From: Randwick, Sydney, NSW, Australia Last post: 6297 days Last view: 6296 days |
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| I used the bilingual phrase cos it's one of those things that, due to cognates, is extremely obvious. And yo no se que is a really obscure joke about the French phrase je nais se quoi (not sure of the spelling).
Anyways... my first thought was what's the word for "Spangled". Somehow I think La bandera espanglada con estrellas (or something like that, my Spanish is still prety rudimentary) wouldn't have the same ring to it. c(: Um, more seriously, it's an absolute non-issue. The friggin White House website has a section with the Spanish words, Bush himself has sung the anthem in Spanish on the campaign trail in the past in places where he was campaigning in Latino communities. Besides which, the US anthem doesn't exactly have any mystical unalterable significance. I understand that the lyrics have changed a little and been adapted to portray US-American patriotism with Latino sensibilities or something like that... but regardless it is just one of several patriotic tunes so at most this is adding one more. That isn't a heinous crime, it's entirely sensible. Moreover, Star Spangled Banner is not that popular, it's an unsingable song of explosions and defeat, and it's taken from a British drinking song. It's not some unalterable prayer brought down by a choir of archangels, fucking with it is entirely legit. Hell, O Canada has been translated not only into French, but several native languages, Spanish, and apparently Cantonese and Mandarin. They've got the right idea here. Bush said he thinks it ought to be sung in English only... this strikes me as a staggeringly bad PR move. The only way it makes any sense is if the Republican Party has just totally given up on courting the latino vote and gone into full-on play-to-the-far-right-racists mode. Which doesn't make sense, there's more Latinos than crazy racists. One more hole in the anti-immgrant rhetoric: 2/3rds of Illegal Immigrants pay income tax and other things, but they can't get most government services and so forth. |
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Skreename Giant Red Paratroopa Since: 11-18-05 Last post: 6302 days Last view: 6295 days |
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| I don't think the anthem itself is a big deal... People know at most, what, one verse? And most don't even really know that, just the tune.
And, on another note, even groups that make up only 3% of the population do have a decent amount of sway. If one appears to be stomping on the minorities, there will be a decent number of other people who take issue. As for illegal aliens, there is a bit of an issue with the whole method of getting into the country legally... And for Vyper's comment about a passport, last I checked those only allow VISITS. Not for you to LIVE THERE. Just a slight difference. |
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