(Link to AcmlmWiki) Offline: thank ||bass
Register | Login
Views: 13,040,846
 Main | Memberlist | Active users | Calendar | Chat | Online users
Ranks | FAQ | ACS | Stats | Color Chart | Search | Photo album 		05-15-24 08:00 PM
0 users currently in World Affairs/Debate.
Acmlm's Board - I3 Archive - World Affairs/Debate - Hm? New poll | |
Pages: 1 2Add to favorites | Next newer thread | Next older thread
User Post
Gavin

Cheep-cheep
Vandalism is not tolerated


 





Since: 11-17-05
From: IL, USA

Last post: 6372 days
Last view: 6316 days
Posted on 04-14-06 07:59 PM Link | Quote
I don't know.. nothing too provacative here, just asking a few questions that are obviously related to the Illegal Immigration debate. None of these are too well thought out, just some questions I have I guess... *shrugs*

When did the "illegal" in "illegal alien" start meaning something else?
When did "immigrant" become synonymous with "illegal alien"?
Why do people actually believe that Americans won't do menial labor?
How have the guest worker-ish programs worked for European countries, and is it fair to apply those results to the relationship with the U.S. and Mexico?
Will I be able to illegally enter Mexico and demand the same rights (or even for that matter, any rights beyond the right to a jail cell) as legal Mexican citizens?

Thexare

Metal battleaxe
Off to better places








Since: 11-18-05

Last post: 6296 days
Last view: 6295 days
Posted on 04-15-06 12:23 AM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Gavin
I don't know.. nothing too provacative here, just asking a few questions that are obviously related to the Illegal Immigration debate. None of these are too well thought out, just some questions I have I guess... *shrugs*

When did the "illegal" in "illegal alien" start meaning something else?

Honestly, if I didn't know better, I'd say that (at least for the politicians) it's all political bullshit that they do to try to get more votes. And I don't know better. As for the other people, I don't know. I've always thought that if you enter the country illegally, you shouldn't have the rights of legal people, but meh. That's just the basic logic area of my brain talking, it has no idea what it's talking about, nope, none at all.

Why do people actually believe that Americans won't do menial labor?

I dunno. Arrogance?

How have the guest worker-ish programs worked for European countries, and is it fair to apply those results to the relationship with the U.S. and Mexico?

I can only reply to the second part with a somewhat unsure "no"; too many differences between the countries for me to believe right now that saying "hey, this works in Sweden (for example), why the hell aren't we doing it here" makes any sense.
Will I be able to illegally enter Mexico and demand the same rights (or even for that matter, any rights beyond the right to a jail cell) as legal Mexican citizens?

Depends. Can you speak Spanish?

Seriously, though, that's the exact argument I usually use here. We can't do that in any other country, we can't sneak in on a boat illegally and still expect employment. =/


But the problem with this debate is that people automatically assume that because of what my opinion is (as seen above, I'm in favor of not doing any favors for illegal aliens), that I'm anti-immigration. It's this kind of black-and-white perception that tends to ruin any intelligent discussion on the subject from what I've seen. I'm actually quite willing to accept that maybe it needs to be easier to legally come here, but that doesn't mean we have to help out those who try to work around inconvenient laws.
Sinfjotle
Lordly? No, not quite.








Since: 11-17-05
From: Kansas

Last post: 6297 days
Last view: 6296 days
Posted on 04-15-06 01:06 AM Link | Quote
I think it goes with the whole give 'em an inch they take a mile thing.

We let they work here, so now they want to have all the rights of a citizen even though they aren't a citizen.
Vyper

Kodondo
Raging Venom








Since: 11-18-05
From: Final Fantasy Fire

Last post: 6313 days
Last view: 6313 days
Posted on 04-15-06 01:10 AM Link | Quote
I hate to pull the conservative card, but this is why liberals like Hillary Clinton and Ted Kennedy are fucking retarded.

Why, oh why do people LISTEN to them?

I believe if you come to this country, you learn english. It's the national language. Don't like it? Get the fuck out.

Also, if you're not legal (regardless if you work or not), quit sucking up our social security, medicare, and education dollars that come from the legal taxpayers. No, I don't have a job currently, but I'm at least looking

Mind you, I have no problem with legal immigrants, and I totally support them coming over
Skydude

Armos Knight








Since: 02-18-06
From: Stanford, CA

Last post: 6569 days
Last view: 6569 days
Posted on 04-15-06 01:12 AM Link | Quote
I have to think that it's been turned into a polar thing just because it's another thing to argue about. If you'll recall, Bush advocated a guest-worker program of sorts within the past couple of years...not sure what happened with that...and he actually speaks quite good Spanish, arguably better than his English, actually
Thexare

Metal battleaxe
Off to better places








Since: 11-18-05

Last post: 6296 days
Last view: 6295 days
Posted on 04-15-06 02:19 AM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Vyper
I hate to pull the conservative card, but this is why liberals like Hillary Clinton and Ted Kennedy are fucking retarded.


Need I point to reasons I think Bush is "fucking retarded"? No? A'ight then.
emcee

Red Super Koopa


 





Since: 11-20-05

Last post: 6296 days
Last view: 6295 days
Posted on 04-15-06 07:13 AM Link | Quote
Really, I think it should be made as easy as possible for Mexican immigrants to get jobs and pay taxes.
Instead of gathering around the Home Depot and doing under the table work, they should have the option of just getting real jobs and paying taxes like the rest of us.
The whole "they'll take our jobs" logic is silly. Why are we more entitled to work somewhere just because its on the same side of the border as we were born? When Mexicans come over and start making money, they'll be consumers like the rest of us, buying products right here in the US, which creates more jobs.
No, maybe they shouldn't have all the rights of citizens, but if they're paying taxes, they should have the right to send their children to the same schools. And once they've been here long enough, maybe a few years, they should have the option of citizenship.
Sinfjotle
Lordly? No, not quite.








Since: 11-17-05
From: Kansas

Last post: 6297 days
Last view: 6296 days
Posted on 04-15-06 11:29 AM Link | Quote
No one mind Mexican immigrants getting jobs emcee, they mind illegal immigrants getting jobs.

Why should someone who broke the law get rewarded for breaking the law?
Gavin

Cheep-cheep
Vandalism is not tolerated


 





Since: 11-17-05
From: IL, USA

Last post: 6372 days
Last view: 6316 days
Posted on 04-15-06 01:20 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by emcee
Really, I think it should be made as easy as possible for Mexican immigrants to get jobs and pay taxes.
Instead of gathering around the Home Depot and doing under the table work, they should have the option of just getting real jobs and paying taxes like the rest of us.
The whole "they'll take our jobs" logic is silly. Why are we more entitled to work somewhere just because its on the same side of the border as we were born? When Mexicans come over and start making money, they'll be consumers like the rest of us, buying products right here in the US, which creates more jobs.

No, maybe they shouldn't have all the rights of citizens, but if they're paying taxes, they should have the right to send their children to the same schools. And once they've been here long enough, maybe a few years, they should have the option of citizenship.


The simple fact of the matter is that their presence is illegal. Hence the "illegal" in "illegal" immigration. It is clear that because of your extremely globalistic, anti-national views you can justify and push aside the "illegal" aspect of all this. But the truth is the presence of an illegal immigrant in our country is an ongoing violation of current laws. It's like getting arrested for smoking pot, but being allowed to toke up in the jail cell. It simply mocks and undermines our judicial system.

Not only are they in continual violation of current laws by their very presence, but then to put a drain on our national services on top of it? It is simply an illogical, irrational stance.
Vyper

Kodondo
Raging Venom








Since: 11-18-05
From: Final Fantasy Fire

Last post: 6313 days
Last view: 6313 days
Posted on 04-15-06 06:43 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Cheveyo Chowilawu
Originally posted by Vyper
I hate to pull the conservative card, but this is why liberals like Hillary Clinton and Ted Kennedy are fucking retarded.


Need I point to reasons I think Bush is "fucking retarded"? No? A'ight then.
Did I ever say Bush wasn't retarded? No, I didn't (and yes, I agree that he is a fuckwad).
Ziff
B2BB
BACKTOBASICSBITCHES


 





Since: 11-18-05
From: A room

Last post: 6295 days
Last view: 6295 days
Posted on 04-15-06 06:45 PM Link | Quote
Just a minor request...Do you guys think we could exercise more discretion with our wordplay and perhaps be slightly more eloquent than "fuckwad", "retard", etc.?
emcee

Red Super Koopa


 





Since: 11-20-05

Last post: 6296 days
Last view: 6295 days
Posted on 04-15-06 07:14 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Gavin

The simple fact of the matter is that their presence is illegal. Hence the "illegal" in "illegal" immigration. It is clear that because of your extremely globalistic, anti-national views you can justify and push aside the "illegal" aspect of all this. But the truth is the presence of an illegal immigrant in our country is an ongoing violation of current laws. It's like getting arrested for smoking pot, but being allowed to toke up in the jail cell. It simply mocks and undermines our judicial system.

Not only are they in continual violation of current laws by their very presence, but then to put a drain on our national services on top of it? It is simply an illogical, irrational stance.


Yes, their illegal now, but it should be a easy as possible for them to become legal. Like going down to a government office and filling out a couple of forms.
Sinfjotle
Lordly? No, not quite.








Since: 11-17-05
From: Kansas

Last post: 6297 days
Last view: 6296 days
Posted on 04-15-06 08:06 PM Link | Quote
You mean, like they should've before they came?
Apophis

Ropa








Since: 11-17-05

Last post: 6296 days
Last view: 6295 days
Skype
Posted on 04-15-06 08:35 PM Link | Quote
they couldn't have done that before they came. that's not how the process works. there are tests and fees.
emcee

Red Super Koopa


 





Since: 11-20-05

Last post: 6296 days
Last view: 6295 days
Posted on 04-15-06 08:48 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Apophis
they couldn't have done that before they came. that's not how the process works. there are tests and fees.


Exactly, I mean, if they could just go fill out form before they come and be legal, I'm sure they'd all do it. Besides just the tests and fees, you have to be some sort of "professional" with a degree, or in a management position.
Snow Tomato

Snap Dragon








Since: 12-31-05
From: NYC

Last post: 6316 days
Last view: 6302 days
Posted on 04-15-06 11:48 PM Link | Quote
Why is it any different if they're "illegal" or a "non-illegal" immigrant. I think you guys are confusing the issues.. no one cares about a piece of paper that says your legal. Besides the people who are concerned with collecting taxes from these people.

The issue here is employment. Immigrants will work longer hours, more productively for cheaper wages. A threat to American workers.. they'll cheapen labor and whatnot. That's the main issue.

Personally... I think that there's enough money to go around. Honestly... has minimum wage lowered since we've had droves of illegal immigrants comming into our country? No. In fact, we've always had droves and droves of illegal immigrants comming into our country. This isn't a real issue... it's a flaw (or a blessing depending on who you are), that always exists.. and it's being used as a platform for the mid-term elections. It's like saying.. "Well you know... the skies still blue, how are we allowing it to still be blue?"... it's a non-issue. Something people will make a big deal about.. then after the mid-term elections... forget about completely. Like how after the presidential election people forgot about the veterans again... and how the issues of social security and other election issues still haven't been dealt with at all (abortion).

If you really want to stop the massive amount of Mexican immigrants comming into our country... then why don't we help improve mexico? Central America is a mess right now... and it's probably in our best interest to help them out anyways. Considering that they're like... on our border.
Vyper

Kodondo
Raging Venom








Since: 11-18-05
From: Final Fantasy Fire

Last post: 6313 days
Last view: 6313 days
Posted on 04-15-06 11:49 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Plus Sign Abomination
Just a minor request...Do you guys think we could exercise more discretion with our wordplay and perhaps be slightly more eloquent than "fuckwad", "retard", etc.?
I really, really, really don't want to post this, but I have to. Ziff, did you see the new South Park 2-part episode called Cartoon Wars? If not, please do so immediately (and heed the messages, please).

Anyway, yeah, that's cool. I'll refrain from derrogatory (did I spell that right?) word usage.
mattp

Red Paratroopa


 





Since: 03-04-06

Last post: 6560 days
Last view: 6560 days
Posted on 04-16-06 12:48 AM Link | Quote
When Mexicans come over and start making money, they'll be consumers like the rest of us, buying products right here in the US, which creates more jobs.

Actually, they send most of it back to their family in Mexico because the US dollar goes a lot farther down there than it does up here. Also a reason why a lot of intelligent people retire to South America. In the US you have to have a LOT of money to retire comfortably, in South America, that same money will let you live like a king.

Why is it any different if they're "illegal" or a "non-illegal" immigrant. I think you guys are confusing the issues.. no one cares about a piece of paper that says your legal. Besides the people who are concerned with collecting taxes from these people.

non-illegal... heh. Actually thats the crux of the issue, and its what -everyone- cares about. A legal immigrants pays taxes and supports the 'system', whereas an illegal immigrant pays no taxes ( except for sales tax of course ) and drains the system. Which costs you money.

The issue here is employment. Immigrants will work longer hours, more productively for cheaper wages. A threat to American workers.. they'll cheapen labor and whatnot. That's the main issue.

That's a secondary issue that I haven't seen recently been brought up. While it is true that the illegal immigrants will cheapen the labor supply, MOST americans won't notice the difference at all because very few americans do manual labor. Any effect will actually be positive, as prices go down when wages are lowered.

If anything it'll encourage people to get training so they can have a little more job security.
Ziff
B2BB
BACKTOBASICSBITCHES


 





Since: 11-18-05
From: A room

Last post: 6295 days
Last view: 6295 days
Posted on 04-16-06 01:10 AM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Vyper
Originally posted by Plus Sign Abomination
Just a minor request...Do you guys think we could exercise more discretion with our wordplay and perhaps be slightly more eloquent than "fuckwad", "retard", etc.?
I really, really, really don't want to post this, but I have to. Ziff, did you see the new South Park 2-part episode called Cartoon Wars? If not, please do so immediately (and heed the messages, please).

Anyway, yeah, that's cool. I'll refrain from derrogatory (did I spell that right?) word usage.


Yeah, I did. However, swearing has squat to do with freedom of speech or the fact that Family Guy has jokes not prevalent to the storyline or that South Park is preachy!

This is a debate forum, and if you've been to debates...well, swearing is discouraged.
Sinfjotle
Lordly? No, not quite.








Since: 11-17-05
From: Kansas

Last post: 6297 days
Last view: 6296 days
Posted on 04-16-06 02:21 AM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Apophis
they couldn't have done that before they came. that's not how the process works. there are tests and fees.


Hint: If you go to the immigration office and ask for papers to become a citizen, they will know you entered the country illegally and thus you have broken the law.

If you don't come in legally, the government can't know you're illegal or you should get deported. It's more of a thing about upholding the law. Do you want to let the laws to not be upheld so people can come over, work, send the money back, then stop working in their own country?

Also, if they just come over here to work, nothing is getting done where ever they came from.
Pages: 1 2Add to favorites | Next newer thread | Next older thread
Acmlm's Board - I3 Archive - World Affairs/Debate - Hm? |


ABII

Acmlmboard 1.92.999, 9/17/2006
©2000-2006 Acmlm, Emuz, Blades, Xkeeper

Page rendered in 0.024 seconds; used 462.14 kB (max 594.09 kB)