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| Acmlm's Board - I3 Archive - World Affairs/Debate - Judas |
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Arwon Bazu                  Since: 11-18-05 From: Randwick, Sydney, NSW, Australia Last post: 6297 days Last view: 6297 days |
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| Skyon, I wanna call you out on this because the other thread got closed beause of all your other whiny persecution-complex, "oh we run this country and still manage to feel like a marginalised minority" stuff. As far as that goes... get over it.
What I wanna talk about is the Gospel of Judas and your claim that it's a plot to destroy the reputation of Jesus. How so? Mainstream Christian beliefs have no explanation for how to go about reconciling the view of Judas as an evil traitor, with the idea that both Jesus and God knew He must die to fulfil his theological destiny. Judas betrayed Jesus for an absolutely token sum and the idea of him acting under orders to facilitate Jesus' tragic destiny makes a hell of a lot of sense, especially when compared to the mainstream canon which offers no plausible explaination for how he can be a reviled traitor, if without him the death and ressurrection never happened. (edited by Arwon on 04-07-06 10:06 PM) |
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Schweiz oder etwas [12:55] (Dr_Death16); I swear, the word drama needs to be stricken from the dictionary, for I've heard it so many times, it will permanently be imprinted on my brain    Since: 11-17-05 From: Kingston, Rhode Island Last post: 6295 days Last view: 6295 days |
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| Oh dude, FINALLY someone mentions this! This is like my BIGGEST Christian wtf.
Why, in any considerable manner, does Judas get the short end of the stick? God has a plan for everyone. (okay, since I clearly misworded this, time to edit: )Presumably if God has a plan for everyone, and Jesus died, it would follow that God's plan for Jesus was to die. Jesus died because Judas betrayed him. Judas assisted in fulfilling God's plan for Jesus, and in doing so fulfilled his own plan, which, by the idea of the divine plan, would mean he was doing God's bidding by doing something that God ordinarily wouldn't like. So where's Judas now? 9th circle. Good game, God. (edited by Grey on 04-08-06 02:10 AM) |
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Wurl Since: 11-17-05 Last post: 6337 days Last view: 6337 days |
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Originally posted by Grey Just like Terri Schiavo, you Nazi-Democrat? |
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windwaker Ninji i'm not judgemental, i'm cynical Lonely People of the World, Unite! Since: 12-27-05 Last post: 6325 days Last view: 6303 days |
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Originally posted by Grey If you're going to take the bible that literally, then you must remember that Jesus was not perfect. "Why hast god forsaken me", etc. It's really hard to tell whether he was planning to die or not. On one hand, he could have easily escaped, on the other hand, he seemed to regret it. *shrug* I'm not christian, so it probably doesn't matter. |
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Silvershield   580  Since: 11-19-05 From: Emerson, New Jersey Last post: 6308 days Last view: 6296 days |
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| Though I couldn't cite an exact source, I definitely remember seeing some sort of a Discovery or History Channel examination of Judas' role in the Passion. Certainly Christian doctrine would insist that, considering how vital Jesus' death is in the grand scheme of things, somebody had to set off the whole series of events. As the show argued, why should that person be damned for effectively allowing all of mankind to be saved? | |||
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Sinfjotle Lordly? No, not quite.  Since: 11-17-05 From: Kansas Last post: 6297 days Last view: 6296 days |
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Originally posted by Grey The Inferno is not part of the bible for a reason man. |
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Schweiz oder etwas [12:55] (Dr_Death16); I swear, the word drama needs to be stricken from the dictionary, for I've heard it so many times, it will permanently be imprinted on my brain Since: 11-17-05 From: Kingston, Rhode Island Last post: 6295 days Last view: 6295 days |
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Originally posted by DracoonOriginally posted by Grey (Shhh.... People believe in Dante as much as they do in the bible, man) As for my statement about Jesus' plan to die, I meant that God's plan for Jesus was for him to die. Like, the whole idea of free will versus divine plan gets to me. Really, anything else I said was just to spark some debate. EDIT: I think you'll find my initial post to be changed to better reflect my feelings on the situation. (edited by Grey on 04-08-06 02:11 AM) |
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Arwon Bazu Since: 11-18-05 From: Randwick, Sydney, NSW, Australia Last post: 6297 days Last view: 6297 days |
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Originally posted by DracoonOriginally posted by Grey Because Dante was a sick motherfucker? |
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emcee Red Super Koopa Since: 11-20-05 Last post: 6296 days Last view: 6295 days |
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| Except he didn't betray Jesus to fulfill the prophecy of Isiah, he did it as an attempt to force Jesus's hand against the Romans. | |||
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1224 Newcomer Since: 04-07-06 From: Out Last post: 6611 days Last view: 6611 days |
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| Well, I personally have always taken a sympathetic veiw of Lucifer and Judas, beacuase they HAD to betray, if they didnt, then the universe would fall apart. The new findings in the bible support my beleifs. | |||
Ailure Mr. Shine I just want peace...  Since: 11-17-05 From: Sweden Last post: 6296 days Last view: 6295 days |
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Originally posted by ArwonYeah, he was, but at least he portrayed hell in the scary way. 
Sometimes I just want to go back in time and meet this Jesus, and maybe clear some of thoose theological problems/theories. Well, Jesus did come to life a few days after his death right, just to disappear? If his death was totally unfit for gods plans, then god might have let jesus live a few years more on earth. Ironic that the same empire who killed Jesus, was also one of the first nations to become christian later. :/ |
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Skydude Armos Knight  Since: 02-18-06 From: Stanford, CA Last post: 6569 days Last view: 6569 days |
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| Well, I think a lot of it comes down to the nature of the divine plan. Yes, Jesus needed to die in order for the resurrection to take place. I think what it comes down to here is the issue of omniscience and free will.
Judas did not need to betray Jesus. He made the choice to do so. That is why he's a reviled traitor. God's plan did not rely on that happening to succeed. Rather, the plan was built with the knowledge that this would happen. There's an argument about whether it's really free will if it's known in advance what the choice will be, and hard to get your mind around that, but still. I don't really know how to explain it better than that. |
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Squash Monster Bouncy Since: 11-18-05 From: Right next to myself. Last post: 6304 days Last view: 6297 days |
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| I always assumed that Jesus could have saved everyone without having to die, and the way things worked out was just one possibility out of many. It fits with how I reconcile God's omniscience with our free-will -- true omniscience entails knowing what will happen no matter what each individual person does, so each individual person can have free will because they have no effect on an overall plan conceived by an omniscient being. Even though God knows exactly what you will do, it does not matter because everything would work just the same if God did not. In the case of Jesus, if we viewed everything from the prespective of an observer who did not know how those events would unfold, it would make more sense for Jesus to not be betrayed, so he could spread the message -- it seems that whole rebirth miracle is more proof that God's plan will work no matter the actions of individuals. | |||
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Deleted User Banned    Since: 05-08-06 Last post: None Last view: 6296 days |
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Originally posted by windwakerOriginally posted by Grey Whoa! Whoa ! Whoa! Easy there! Jesus WAS perfect, but so many people try to justify their vanities by lying and saying that Jesus wasn't perfect. He was our was to redemption, and that was only IF he was infact stainless (Metaphor), and he was. |
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windwaker Ninji i'm not judgemental, i'm cynical Lonely People of the World, Unite! Since: 12-27-05 Last post: 6325 days Last view: 6303 days |
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Originally posted by Skyon What are you freaking talking about? I'm not "justifying my vanities". Saying Jesus wasn't perfect isn't a lie. I've spoken to many pastors that say he wasn't perfect. Are they lying? Are they "justifying certain vanities"? Now, I have to ask you something. Was Mark perfect? Was Matthew perfect? Was John perfect? Was Luke perfect? Originally posted by Skyon what edit: also, saying he was stainless isn't a metaphor. Look it up, it's in the definition. (edited by windwaker on 04-09-06 01:02 AM) |
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Doppelganger 8DS  Since: 11-17-05 From: 65 00 20 00 65 00 1F 00 65 00 2F 00 Last post: 6296 days Last view: 6295 days |
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Originally posted by Skyon Hang on there, no one here is justtifing their vanities by saying he's not an absolutely perfect being, who, like the bible says, gave up his life for the people, etc etc. No one is perfect, not by a longshot. We're all only human. Man, even God probably isn't perfect, if hes the one who did all this. There's MANY ways to look at this recent "Gospel of Judas". I, for one, think that in every story (Take this as you will) there has to be a traitor or comparably 'bad dude'. This Judas thing sprung as such, betraying Jesus. |
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Schweiz oder etwas [12:55] (Dr_Death16); I swear, the word drama needs to be stricken from the dictionary, for I've heard it so many times, it will permanently be imprinted on my brain Since: 11-17-05 From: Kingston, Rhode Island Last post: 6295 days Last view: 6295 days |
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Originally posted by Skydude So what you're saying here is that the nature of the divine plan is such that our own free will dictates what happens in it next? But since the prospect of free will is nigh-infinite, the divine plan has an infinite amount of outcomes, meaning it can't possibly be a very well-planned plan if it doesn't even have a set goal (since this goal and its methods are modulated by the decisions of its subjects). On the other hand, this might also mean that the divine plan for us all isn't so much a plan, but God saying "Oh, they did this, I better fix a few things so that my plan will still work". Or that could be God's plan. You know, to change things based on what the human will dictates. |
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Ziff B2BB BACKTOBASICSBITCHES Since: 11-18-05 From: A room Last post: 6295 days Last view: 6295 days |
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| God exists outside of time and space. The concept of freewill as we know it CAN account for the concept of providence. At least according to Eriugena. | |||
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1224 Newcomer Since: 04-07-06 From: Out Last post: 6611 days Last view: 6611 days |
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| Jesus died on teh cross for theatrics, God can do anything right? Right! so he could save everyones soul with out the whole cross thing right? Right! So then the only reason he died on teh cross was for pure theatrics, and because he was bound by teh fate of the prophesies. | |||
Snow Tomato Snap Dragon  Since: 12-31-05 From: NYC Last post: 6316 days Last view: 6302 days |
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| Theatrics? I doubt it... thousands and thousands of people were crucified every single day under the roman empire. It wasn't theatrical... it was probably played out by the time jesus died. It was the work of his diciples and his message... you can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.
And jesus was not perfect. Just like any man, he questioned gods plan for him. He overturned a table in the temple in anger and frustration, couldn't control his temper. When he was younger he disobeyed his mother and father by running off to the temple for a couple of days to learn about god. Stainless? No. I never thought about the Judas thing... actually. He's now my favorite character in the bible.. because I can't determine if it was free will... or part of gods devine plan. That's crazy. |
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