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| Acmlm's Board - I3 Archive - World Affairs/Debate - Holocaust denial |
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emcee Red Super Koopa                 Since: 11-20-05 Last post: 6296 days Last view: 6295 days |
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| Yesterday, David Irving a controversial historian was sentenced to 3 years in prison for the crime of Holocaust denial.
What are your thoughts on the subject? First of all, do you believe there has been any exaggerations made as to scope of the Holocaust? Did it occur at all? Keep in mind, depending on where you live, your answer could be against the law. Secondly, (and most likely a much less one sided discussion) how do you feel about the very act of denying the holocaust being illegal? Does the very act of denying the holocaust incite hatred and violence? Is on the same level as yelling fire in a crowded theatre? Like everything I have an opinion on this, but I think this time I'll wait for a few responses first. (edited by emcee on 02-22-06 01:39 AM) |
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Kutske    Since: 11-19-05 Last post: 6643 days Last view: 6643 days |
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| If you read more carefully, you'll see that he was imprisoned for re-entering Austria after having been banned earlier for denying the holocaust. So what happened was that his public denial of the holocaust got him barred from Austria, they basically said, "You don't gotta go home but you can't stay here." He then re-entered the country illegally, and that's what netted him the jailtime.
As for me personally, I don't know anything that I haven't seen with my own eyes or heard with my own ears, but I somehow doubt that there could possibly be a massive conspiracy by thousands of world leaders, tens of thousands of journalists and news reporters and millions of Jews to falsely implicate the Nazi party and/or Adolf Hitler of genocide. It seems more likely to me that he did do it, although numbers could very well have been blown out of proportion. You've got to wonder, though. I mean, we know for a fact that the Bush administration has an institutionalized policy of lies and deciet, and the only way we've been able to find this out is due to freedom of the press, investigative reporters, people higher up in the chain of command coming clean, etc. Back during World War II, the American public wasn't nearly as free as it is now to critisize government policy. I seem to recall an incident as recent as Vietnam where military police spritzed gunfire into a crowd of peaceful protestors in Washington. Who knows what the government could have been hiding from us? Just a thought. Technically speaking, the entirety of World History as we currently know it could have been fabricated. Can you prove that the Boston Tea Party ever took place? All you have are doccuments referencing it, there is no forensic or otherwise physical proof that it ever happened, just eyewitness accounts, so it's entirely feasable that the whole fiasco was fabricated. Who's to say that George Washington died of pneumonia on the night of December 14, 1799? Can we prove that fact beyond all reasonable doubt? All we have that attest to this fact are historical records, records that could have been altered, fabricated. Did a person named Jesus ever roam ancient Jerusalem? Did the prophet Mohammed ever actually exist? Before the age of film, photography, DNA and fingerprinting, we really can't be any more certain that anything occured than our trust in the words of historians of ages past. But whether the holocaust happened or not seems irrelevant at this point; we all know that Hitler was a bad, bad man, we all sympathize with the Jews for what they were put through, and nothing is going to change that. But making denial of the holocaust a crime does seem to border on thought-crime, it's a bit unnerving, but at the same time, it does seem like something that could erupt a crowd of people into violence. Then again, going into the middle of a KKK meeting and proclaiming Jesus Christ to be a black man is inciting violence as well, and those anti-Denialist laws were created in a much more unstable time, so they don't seem all that neccessary anymore. It's like those cartoons of the prophet Mohammed that have incited violence all around the world; is the cartoonist to blame, or are the violent protestors to blame? If I did walk into the middle of a KKK meeting and proclaim that Jesus was black and they murdered me on the spot, is it my fault for inciting them, or is it their fault for reacting to my message in such a violent manner? If a fourteen year old girl dresses in a sexually attractive manner and is raped because of it, is it her fault for flaunting her body, or the rapists fault for being unable to resist his urges? There has to be some point at which we stop shifting the blame, at which we hold a person to be responsible for their own actions, instead of blaming it on a cartoon or a suggestive style of dress or an incendiary remark. R-e-s-p-o-n-s-i-b-i-l-i-t-y, find out what it means to me. Edit I should clear something up. He was originally barred from entering Austria back in the late eighties, for ties to neo-Nazis and for hate speech. He didn't merely say, "I don't think the holocaust happened." And then was thrown in jail for it, it's nothing that trigger-sensitive. Also, it should be noted that the Denialist remarks he made were made back in the eighties, when he was originally banned from entering Austria, and it should also be noted that he's since recanted those remarks. I can't say I like the guy, but I don't think he deserves to be in jail for his beliefs or remarks, regardeless of how unpopular they may be. (edited by Kutske on 02-21-06 06:24 AM) |
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Arwon Bazu Since: 11-18-05 From: Randwick, Sydney, NSW, Australia Last post: 6297 days Last view: 6296 days |
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| I wonder how we go about reconciling the "absolutism of free speech" arguments in the Mohammed cartoon row with laws that will lock people up for 3 years for inciteful speech. | |||
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Kutske Since: 11-19-05 Last post: 6643 days Last view: 6643 days |
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| It's because Irving is white and presumably Christian, and the rioters are not and not, respectively. I hate to be the one to say it, but you know it's true. Imagine if Carlos Mencia or Chris Rock were white, imagine how quickly they'd be compared to Nazis if not the H-Man himself. White people are expected to use politically correct speech and be overly, gushingly symapthetic towards all minority groups, regardeless of how violent and misogynistic they may be, while the minorities are left to bicker amongst themselves and are generally allowed to say and do as they please. It's patronizing more than it is helpful, really, and in our quest to save free speech, we've in fact severely limited our freedoms both legally and socially.
I keep a positive outlook though; I contend that someday in the future, due to interracial couples, we'll all be the same lightish-brown color, and then we can get to the real root of our problems -- culture. Then once we find a way to get people to stop bitching about cultural differences, all superficial labels will dissapear, and we can all finally start hating one another for who we truly are, instead of what we look like or where we come from. This universal and pure form of hatred will be what brings us together as a species. Yes, that's right (I'm lookin at you, Captain & Tennille) -- hate will bring us together. |
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emcee Red Super Koopa Since: 11-20-05 Last post: 6296 days Last view: 6295 days |
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| He wasn't banned from Austria, a warrant was issued for his arrest 1989 for the crime of Holocaust denial, so he was staying out of Austria to avoid being arrested. | |||
geeogree Red Cheep-cheep Since: 11-17-05 Last post: 6310 days Last view: 6295 days |
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| I think jail time is a little extreme.... maybe a fine?
it's just a long time to spend in jail for having an opinion about something... even if the said opinion isn't true.... he's still entitled to believe what he wants and to promote his ideal in a peaceful manner. |
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Ziff B2BB BACKTOBASICSBITCHES Since: 11-18-05 From: A room Last post: 6295 days Last view: 6295 days |
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| Holocaust denial is bad enough, but the general thing is that people that have public voices on this matter USUALLY have ties to Neo-NAZIs (read - violent people). Throwing him in prison does a) shut him up and hope that he learns the error of his way (unlikely), b) sends a message to the other bastards in that movement that they are not tolerated in society, or c) makes him into a martyr. Well, the neo-NAZI complex of "the world against us" turns everything they do into little martyrdoms ("he fell down the stairs...must've been one of them JEWS!" "YEAH! IJC!"). It's really a no win situation. But yeah, he should've stayed out of Austria if he wanted to not get tossed in the slammer. | |||
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Arwon Bazu Since: 11-18-05 From: Randwick, Sydney, NSW, Australia Last post: 6297 days Last view: 6296 days |
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Originally posted by Kutske Uh, the dudes who started the cartoon furore were white Christian Danes. You've missed the point. So on the one hand you've got people publishing offensive cartoons and the defence is FREE SPEECH MUST BE ABSOLUTE then on the other hand you've got people denying the Holocuast and it's all NO FREE SPEECH DOESN'T COUNT THERE. |
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Jomb Deddorokku  Since: 12-03-05 From: purgatory Last post: 6298 days Last view: 6298 days |
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| Free speech should be absolute in all cases. If the ideas are wrong and cant be supported by fact then they will die on their own (assuming the population is reasonably educated). When we begin to limit free speech we set a very dangerous precedent, far more dangerous than anyone denying the holocast or other dumb ideas they may come up with. Next thing you know Bush may deny you the right to criticize him, because it could cause unrest.
As for sending people to prison for simple ideas, i seem to remember a young man who got sent to prison a long time ago. He wrote a book about his ideas in there. I think he called it Meine Kampf. |
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Thexare Metal battleaxe Off to better places  Since: 11-18-05 Last post: 6296 days Last view: 6295 days |
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Originally posted by Jomb Except, you know, this was Austria. |
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Jomb Deddorokku Since: 12-03-05 From: purgatory Last post: 6298 days Last view: 6298 days |
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| Same principle applies in any country, but Bush is more well known that the leader of Austria (i dont even know who that is, but then i'm not from there) | |||
Skydude Armos Knight  Since: 02-18-06 From: Stanford, CA Last post: 6569 days Last view: 6569 days |
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| Well, except that using Bush in that sense rather suggests something relating specifically to his own administration rather than a general worry about free speech given the general tone of this forum. | |||
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Jomb Deddorokku Since: 12-03-05 From: purgatory Last post: 6298 days Last view: 6298 days |
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| Bush is one to watch, admittedly. Was'nt too long ago i remember him saying something to the effect that people should'nt protest the war in iraq because thats unpatriotic and could "hurt morale"
Or the way he makes it sound like whoever let it be known that he is spying on US citizens illegally is somehow the bad guy in that scenario. I could absolutely see him backing all sorts of limits on free speech. But the free speech agrument still applies to any country. People should be free to peacefully exp |
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Wurl Since: 11-17-05 Last post: 6337 days Last view: 6337 days |
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| This is a clear violation of freedom of speech. I take this to be an absolute right, even though it's difficult to defend denial of something that clearly happened. | |||
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emcee Red Super Koopa Since: 11-20-05 Last post: 6296 days Last view: 6295 days |
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| It should be obvious to anyone with eyes and common sense that the Holocaust did occur. I have seen the photos of the pits of dead bodies, and many of testamonies from the thousands of survivors, and the camps are still there. There is enough hard evidence to make it a pretty open a shut case. So how could people deny it happened? The only way to fake something like that would have to be by a very powerful group. A group that could fake thousands of photos, documents, and witness testimonies, or at the very least manipulate hundreds of historians into believing this evidence means something it doesn't. I'm of course talking about the Jews. This is why anyone who goes beyond just entertaining the possibility that the Holocaust didn't happen to actually believing it didn't, is almost certainly in some way linked to neonazism, or general bigotry towards Jewish people and a belief that the "evil Jews" are exerting pressure on world government, manipulating our accounts of history, and trying to control the world's wealth.
To me the phrase "freedom of speech", is wrong, it should be "freedom of expession", speech is both too broad and to limiting, it covers all speech and none of the other forms of communication. There is no exp Besides that, its just counter productive. When someone is thrown in jail for denying the Holocaust, they become a martyr to other deniers, an it just reinforces the belief in oppression of their views by a Jewish controlled conspircy. There is nothing that shouldn't be discussed in civil debate. When someone is wrong it becomes obvious very quickly in debate. Refusing to even debate the topic, and throwing anyone in jail who tries to, just show lack of faith in your own arguement and reinforces the beliefs of the opposition. (edited by emcee on 02-22-06 01:01 PM) |
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Arwon Bazu Since: 11-18-05 From: Randwick, Sydney, NSW, Australia Last post: 6297 days Last view: 6296 days |
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Originally posted by Jomb So, you support the right to yell "fire" in a crowded theatre? |
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Skydude Armos Knight Since: 02-18-06 From: Stanford, CA Last post: 6569 days Last view: 6569 days |
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| And therein lies the difficulty of making the determination. Things which would cause obvious danger such as the situation you describe should probably not be allowed. But then, where do you draw the line? It could be said that a number of avenues of "free speech" may serve to produce danger in one way or another...is it the imminence of the danger that's the issue, the extent of it, or what?
It's all well and good to say we should have freedom of exp |
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Sinfjotle Lordly? No, not quite.  Since: 11-17-05 From: Kansas Last post: 6297 days Last view: 6295 days |
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If there is a fire in a theater, then yes, I support someone yelling "Fire!!!".
Originally posted by emcee This is a great idea really. You can exp |
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Skreename Giant Red Paratroopa Since: 11-18-05 Last post: 6302 days Last view: 6295 days |
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| The major thing about the laws dealing with denying the holocaust over there is that it HAPPENED there. You won't see people in Hiroshima/Nagasaki saying "No, we never got nuked". It's a bit more engrained on the cultures there; to say that it never happened is rather harsh.
Unfortunately enough, there isn't really anything that can relate to it in the US... I can see how it would be EXTREMELY inflammatory, though. |
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Jomb Deddorokku Since: 12-03-05 From: purgatory Last post: 6298 days Last view: 6298 days |
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| Actually there are things that can relate to it in the US, they just happened further back in history. We did some pretty awful things to the indiginous people who used to live on this land a long time ago. But if someone were to deny that any of that ever happened, i would just regard them as a dumbass, not as a criminal deserving prison time. But people need to be free to make their own conclusions, because you never know. There may be things we accept as truth which are complete lies and someone i'd consider a fool right now could eventually come forward with hard evidence of something or other. People thought Copernicus was just evil and stupid when he said the earth was not the center of the solar system, and he ended up being right about it.
Arwon - yelling fire is causing a public disturbance, much like playing your music at full blast all night long when your neighbors are trying to sleep. But if you were to simply say "fire" in a normal tone of voice, then you should be allowed.  |
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