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| Acmlm's Board - I3 Archive - ROM Hacking - Ok, how about clean room disassembly of Lunar Magic? |
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calcwatch Newcomer                  Since: 11-19-05 From: Silicon Valley Last post: 6474 days Last view: 6280 days |
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Originally posted by Techokami  ... Good point... Personal safety aside, having an open source locking feature would be silly, anyway... It would make unlocking the file trivial for anyone who looks at the source code. |
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FreeDOS + Giant Red Koopa Legion: freedos = fritos    Since: 11-17-05 From: Seattle Last post: 6279 days Last view: 6279 days |
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Okay... now that there seems to be some interest, any volunteers for either position (can't be both for legal reasons)? (I'll set up a table in the first post..  ) |
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Goplat Newcomer Since: 01-29-06 Last post: 6655 days Last view: 6655 days |
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| If you want to find out how stuff in SMW works, IMO the best way to go about it would be to disassemble SMW itself, not LM. | |||
LocalH Paragoomba Since: 11-20-05 Last post: 6518 days Last view: 6518 days |
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| Well, I think both are laudable goals. Given that the vast majority of SMW hackers use LM, it would be immensely helpful if any open-source alternative be as compatible as possible. However, it would also be laudable to disassemble SMW itself. Speaking from the perspective of the Sonic hacking scene, we made huge leaps and bounds once we started disassembling the games. | |||
Techokami Porcupo  Since: 12-03-05 From: Mass-uh-chew-sits USofA Last post: 6294 days Last view: 6280 days |
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Originally posted by LocalH I thought someone was trying to disassemble SMW at one point. Also, SNES ASM isn't as well-known as Genesis ASM (might get proven wrong, but then you'd be asked "why didn't you start a disassembly?") One reason people want to deassemble Lunar Magic is to figure out how it does certain things like read and format level layouts, as well as decompress graphics. Also, surprize to see you here, LocalH. I see you more on SWS2B and CulT :o |
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Goplat Newcomer Since: 01-29-06 Last post: 6655 days Last view: 6655 days |
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| SMW graphics compression isn't that complicated. If anyone's interested I could write up a doc for it (it's almost the same as EarthBound's, which I cracked a long time ago) | |||
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LocalH Paragoomba Since: 11-20-05 Last post: 6518 days Last view: 6518 days |
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Originally posted by Techokami Well, the 65816 is a pretty standard processor, basically a beefed-up 6502. It's just a matter of someone doing it, although it is a lot of work. All it takes is one person willing to do the work and share it, and they'll likely be received as "gods" within the scene (same as Nemesis was when he first started disassembling S2). The method used for the Sonic games was to modify an emulator to create a log of all bytes in the ROM that are executed, to differentiate between code and data, and then feed that log into IDA (Interactive DisAssembler). The concept should be applicable to any system with a reasonably-accurate emulator. |
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Dragonsbrethren   440  Since: 12-01-05 From: New Jersey Last post: 6467 days Last view: 6467 days |
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| I point you to an emulator that strives for accuracy: BSNES
Maybe if someone asks nicely byuu will consider adding said feature. |
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Techokami Porcupo Since: 12-03-05 From: Mass-uh-chew-sits USofA Last post: 6294 days Last view: 6280 days |
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Originally posted by Dragonsbrethren Better than that; just edit the source code  |
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byuu Newcomer Since: 01-11-06 Last post: 6534 days Last view: 6534 days |
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I would, and have. And I've had a ton of help from volunteers fixing bugs for me, porting my software to other platforms, etc
I've considered making table generators such as this for the debugger, e.g. marking which memory bytes are actually accessed, which ones are executed as code, etc. For your idea to work with the SNES, you'd need to take it a step further. The SNES can execute the same exact code differently depending on the status register bits, so you'd pretty much be forced to log each opcode to a disassembly as it is executed in-game. Just knowing what data is code and what data is not is not enough to disassemble 65c816 code. It's doable, but I don't really have any plans to do that specifically myself. Example: binary code = a9 00 ea This is: lda #$00 : nop, if the status register has the m flag set, and lda #$ea00 if the m flag is clear. The 6502 (NES), 680x0 (Genesis), SPC700 (SNES), etc. do not have this problem. |
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Parasyte + Red Paragoomba Since: 01-05-06 Last post: 6600 days Last view: 6600 days |
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| File locking? Has everyone forgotten about RLM? It's source was released under GPL, and the development of the projects was done without any reverse engineering attempts on Lunar Magic. Personally, I think the whole idea of "locking" a hack is counterproductive and should be bannished forever.
That aside, I wish you luck in your endeavor to support the free software movement in the relm of ROM hacking. |
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FreeDOS + Giant Red Koopa Legion: freedos = fritos Since: 11-17-05 From: Seattle Last post: 6279 days Last view: 6279 days |
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Originally posted by Parasyte No? Also more bonus points for making it 100% Unix-friendly. |
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Parasyte + Red Paragoomba Since: 01-05-06 Last post: 6600 days Last view: 6600 days |
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| Yes, indeed. When I can't use GNU, I <3 MinGW.
edit: I forgot to mention that RLM was moved into my projects directory. http://parasyte.panicus.org/projects/rlm/rlm.zip http://parasyte.panicus.org/projects/rlm/rlm_v1.1.zip http://parasyte.panicus.org/projects/rlm/rlm_v1.2.zip Original screenshot of the program in action: http://parasyte.panicus.org/projects/rlm/rlm1.png (edited by Parasyte on 02-08-06 09:53 PM) |
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Kailieann Since: 11-18-05 Last post: 6279 days Last view: 6279 days |
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Originally posted by byuu Doesn't Geiger's debugger already do that? |
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MathOnNapkins 1100  In SPC700 HELL Since: 11-18-05 Last post: 6279 days Last view: 6279 days |
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| ^ Yes.
I still say that a disassembly of the executable would be going overboard. I mean jeez Freedos, I see you complaining about the lack of interest in making a new SMW editor, but if you're so interested you should take the initiative and get the ball rolling by actually working on it. Doesn't mean you'd have to finish it but projects need to start somewhere. |
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Parasyte + Red Paragoomba Since: 01-05-06 Last post: 6600 days Last view: 6600 days |
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| I just don't see the "start somewhere" being the problem. It appears to me that FreeDOS wants to clone Lunar Magic about as close as possible. Personally, I dislike the idea of cloning it. (Better to go with your own unique style than trying for a 1:1 copy.) If he were to drop the idea of cloning the editor via reverse engineering, then I imagine getting started on a new open-initiative editor wouldn't be such a hastle. But as mentioned previously, he will need some documentation of the Super Mario World ROM data. And there are several ways to go about that:
1) The easiest way is to take some of the freely available documentation that's already out there. Of course what is available is possibly too imcomplete, which makes the next method come in handy. 2) Use a debugger to quickly find whatever pieces of information you are missing. 3) Use a corrupter, with wildly varying results. Even if you find what you need with a corrupter, you still have a lot of researching to do before you can properly parse the data format and such. Now I am probably beating a dead horse here with information that everyone is well aware of. However, that's not to say this post in meaningless. Unfortunately, I am also well aware that FreeDOS' earlier suggestion to start an editor from scratch was more or less overthrown by the idiot masses. This thread appears to be heading the same direction. So here is my reccomendation: Gather all who are interested in helping the project, and work on it where acmlmorons (no offense to all, but the large majority of you people lack any credible amount of common sense) will not influence the project. If you are interested, I am willing to provide whatever support you may be lacking. All you have to do is respond to the private message I am about to send. |
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Glyphodon Since: 11-18-05 Last post: 6320 days Last view: 6301 days |
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| Take me with you! I hate it here. | |||
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Techokami Porcupo Since: 12-03-05 From: Mass-uh-chew-sits USofA Last post: 6294 days Last view: 6280 days |
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Originally posted by Goplat Please do it, I'd love to give something like that a read. If you need some help with the project guys, I'm available to assist any way possible. Maybe a rudimentary sprite tile mapping editor? :O |
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Parasyte + Red Paragoomba Since: 01-05-06 Last post: 6600 days Last view: 6600 days |
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| I think what the project really needs is a few coders to help with the editor core, and some other hackers who can locate and document ROM data (using debuggers, hex editors, corruptors... anything but reverse engineering Lunar Magic or other 'non-free' tools.)
I have offered to help with some coding and a little data hunting. Just contact FreeDOS if you would like to help. Just be sure that you agree with the GPL and such before you start pitching in. |
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LocalH Paragoomba Since: 11-20-05 Last post: 6518 days Last view: 6518 days |
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| I still say that there should be an effort to disassemble SMW itself - while ROM editors are nice, there will always be things that you can do with a disassembly but not with an editor. Also, rather than having one single comprehensive editor, I feel that it may be better to create a suite of tools that work together (and that also have the possibility of use with non-SMW games). On top of that, one could have an editor frontend that brings all the tools together to produce the final result. For example, SonED 2 doesn't work with ROM images, but rather split data which can be reinserted to the ROM once edited. And it's quite simple to generate the split data if you have an unmodified ROM. This is also where a disassembly would increase flexibility, as you don't have to worry so much about shifting data around and modifying pointers, all you do is reference the binary within the source, and all pointers are handled correctly when assembling.
Unfortunately, my knowledge is primarily of the Genesis, so I wouldn't be able to assist with such an effort. But, as I said, Sonic hacking improved by leaps and bounds once we started disassembling the games. (edited by LocalH on 02-10-06 10:56 PM) |
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| Acmlm's Board - I3 Archive - ROM Hacking - Ok, how about clean room disassembly of Lunar Magic? |
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