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| Acmlm's Board - I3 Archive - World Affairs/Debate - Why are they dying? |
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Snow Tomato Snap Dragon                    Since: 12-31-05 From: NYC Last post: 6315 days Last view: 6300 days |
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| I was on myspace and I got a bulletin from a friend of mine that read-
Take a man and put him alone, put him twelve thousand miles from home. Empty his heart of all but his blood, make him live in sweat, in mud. This is the life I have to live, this the soul to the Devil I give. You have your parties and drink your beer, while young men are dying over here. Plant your signs on the White House lawn; "Lets get out of Vietnam". Use your signs and have your fun, then refuse to use a gun. There's nothing else for you to do then I'm supposed to die for you. There is one thing that you don't know; and that's where I think you should go! I'm already here and it's too late. I've traded all my love just for hate. I'll hate you till the day I die. You made me hear my buddy cry. I saw his leg and his blood shed, then I heard them say "This one's dead". It was a large price for him to pay, to let you live another day. He had the guts to fight and die, to keep the freedom you live by. By his dying your life he buys, but who gives a DAMN if a Soldier dies! If you give a DAMN repost it!! - I see some serious flaws with this. First of all, soldiers say they're fighting for my personal freedom. In the case of the War on Terror, I'd say okay. Afghanistan I could understand, it seemed as if they were trying to catch those responsible. I live in New York City, and I know people who died in 9/11.. I can certainly see why we'd go after those responsible. Now, Vietnam and Iraq are two totally separate deals. I'm going to focus on Iraq, because that is the current issue. Saddam Hussein is NOT linked to Al Queda or 9/11, he does NOT have WMD's and as far as I can tell, he posed no direct threat to the US at the time of our invasion. So why are soldiers dying over there? If this administration really cared about this issue, we'd be in China, and in Cuba, and in Venezuela, and in over half of Africa freeing people from oppressive rulers. We'd be in Sudan helping them escape their devastating ten year long civil war, and we'd help them establish a democratic government. I'm not dumb, and I don't see why alot of people can't see why freeing a foreign country that's unrelated to us in every way.. makes any sense. And if this administration cared about preserving democracy, they wouldn't be trying to make this country less democratic by abusing the checks and balances our country is built on. Republicans wouldn't be following the unitary executive theory, they'd be trying to improve our democracy by questioning what's going on. The unitary executive is much like the divine right of kings, which scares the bejesus out of me. I have a huge problem with war to begin with.. and I'm having an even huger problem dealing with this Iraq situation, because it's not justified. There are over a thousand US soldiers dead... and over 30,000 Iraqi's dead. And believe it or not, some of these people were fighting to keep us out, not because they're terrorists who want all Americans dead. They've also dehumanized the enemy. Many kids where I live refer to arabs as "sand niggers" and openly say "we should just drop a nuclear bomb on the whole middle east".. 
The bottom line is, no one can clearly say why we're in Iraq. A fight without a cause is destined to lose.. I believe. If we set up a democracy there, it's most likely going to be flawed, rushed and weak. It'll be taken over fairly quickly, kind of like the Weimer republic in Germany post WWI. I seriously doubt we're able to solve over 3,000 years of religious hatred in a couple of months, or even years. In this case, I wouldn't mind a ceasefire and soldiers staying there to make sure the negotiation process and the democratization of Iraq is going well. Because I mean we do have to have a rational solution to the mess we're in. The two extremes of "keep the troops there fighting" and "pull them out immediatly" aren't going to be very effective. But this thread isn't about the solution. It's about the cause of this. Why are soldiers dying? Why are Iraqi citizens dying? (edited by Snow Tomato on 01-16-06 12:28 PM) (edited by Snow Tomato on 01-16-06 12:29 PM) |
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Rom Manic  Since: 12-18-05 From: Detroit, WHAT?! Last post: 6294 days Last view: 6294 days |
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| Iraq is a big mess. You blew up their shit, and now the Iraqi's are paying for it with attacks from terrorists linked to Al Quaeda.
But Sadaam Hussein was a threat. There's no going around it. Even before Bush was in power, Clinton knew that they needed to do something about Iraq. The whole White House knew. It turned out that Bush was the one who was instigated and had to lay down the hammer. That doesn't help the fact that his daddy already went to war with Iraq. There are bigger concerns out there. China is corrupt beyond belief. Algeria is a fucking riot zone, what with the Berbers and that splinter cell out of control. Afghanistan is now under drug lord control, no thanks to us (At least the Taleban had that under control). Not to mention all the other countries left to take control by themselves after the US military went in to "Fix" whatever problems they had. So yeah, there are fuckups. But the important issue is how we can fix it. There's no sense bitching or holding vengeance, but working together to make a utopia for the people. |
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Ziff B2BB BACKTOBASICSBITCHES Since: 11-18-05 From: A room Last post: 6294 days Last view: 6294 days |
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| Venezuala is a democratically elected government and is not outwardly oppressive. Cuba - as far as dictatorships go - is pretty decent.
That entire "essay" I suppose was far too scattered and fragmented to really be informed upon any of the various issues. In addition, the referring post is full of machismo and a rather ignorant and arrogant disposition to those that fundamentally and morally oppose the war. The resistance to Vietnam was extremely different to modern opposition to the war. The problems that people had with Vietnam are far away and removed from what is occuring in Iraq. The only real parallel is that the forces in questions were reacting via anti-colonialist methods (the Communists in Vietnam and the Ba'athists in Iraq). Oh, and for you history buffs out there...Iraq has already gone through this EXACT same circumstance before. The British thought it would be a cake walk and they had much the same problems that America has had. I should remind people that Britain at the time was far more well prepared to deal with anti-colonialists than America today would be (America's occupations thus far have been extremely temporary). ROM - talk to most international specialists and they'll tell you that isolation and containment were working marvels on Iraq. Iraq within a decade could've eschewed the yolk of dictatorship so that it would be able to enter the international stage. It was required - isolation breeds discontent within the population. However, the use of economic sanctioning and embargos should be EXTREMELY limited due to the harm that inflicts not upon the government but instead the civilian populace. Look at what is happening in Burma (Myanmar). |
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Wurl Since: 11-17-05 Last post: 6336 days Last view: 6336 days |
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| Venezuala is democratically elected, but Hugo Chavez is starting to end that. He's already abolished the Senate (not the House), ended 2/3 majority, and recently got rid of the opposition party. Though it should be noted Venezuala is parlimentry, so the opposition and control parties are coalitions of parties. Chavez has done some good for Venezuala, but he stands to do much more damage.
Also, I disagree with the essay in the fact that it makes Saddam seem less oppressive than China, Cuba, Sudan, ect.; Saddam was a brutal dictator and should not be dis-regarded. That doesn't make the U.S. right either. This is where Bush's good-evil point of view particuarly fails. It also should be noted that the U.S. could not simply attack China or Venezuala. Both nations have us by the balls- China produces most of our consumer goods and outnumber the U.S. and Venezuala supplies about 10% of our oil. |
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Rom Manic Since: 12-18-05 From: Detroit, WHAT?! Last post: 6294 days Last view: 6294 days |
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| Lest we forget the American pocketbook. Last I checked, you owe china over 7 TRILLION dollars.
Which is a fair amount, so to speak. One thing I despise about China/America co-operation is that Microsoft is aiding the Chinese government in supressing the amount of anti-governmental websites in China. |
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Ziff B2BB BACKTOBASICSBITCHES Since: 11-18-05 From: A room Last post: 6294 days Last view: 6294 days |
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Originally posted by Wurl ERRR. Hugo Chavez didn't get rid of the opposition parties. The opposition parties opted out of the election in a boycott. Therefore their lack of representation in the house is their own choice. |
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Wurl Since: 11-17-05 Last post: 6336 days Last view: 6336 days |
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| I didn't mean to say Chavez himself got rid of the opposition party himself. To my understanding, there were a few reports of interference in previous elections which is why the opposition protested. | |||
Jomb Deddorokku  Since: 12-03-05 From: purgatory Last post: 6297 days Last view: 6297 days |
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| oil
$$$$$$$ thats why we are in Iraq instead of those other countries. |
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Snow Tomato Snap Dragon Since: 12-31-05 From: NYC Last post: 6315 days Last view: 6300 days |
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| I'm not saying that Saddam wasn't oppressive. And obviously we can't attack China because they have us literally by the balls with all the money we owe them, and not even that just the sheer amout of people that are in China it'd be a suicide mission. There are reasons we put up with China, as well as Venezuela and they're related to bussiness issues. (Venezuelen oil and such). I'm saying that if this administration really cares about preserving democracy, why are we saying that it's alright for some countries to oppress their people.. and on the other hand with some countries it's completely 100% immoral and wrong.
This foreign policy makes all Americans look imperialistic and money hungry. In relation to the war, it looks the same way. Are people ultimatly giving up their lives for a profit, or are people truly fighting for freedom? It's the question of.. why are we fighting? |
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Ziff B2BB BACKTOBASICSBITCHES Since: 11-18-05 From: A room Last post: 6294 days Last view: 6294 days |
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Venezuala is not oppressive 
There is no reason for the nation to be listed with the likes of China (with issues like seperatists in Xianjiang) or Sudan (with it's Darfur crisis) |
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geeogree Red Cheep-cheep Since: 11-17-05 Last post: 6309 days Last view: 6294 days |
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| the US is at war with Iraq because it was the easiest target with which to send a message to the rest of the middle east, and maybe even the rest of the world
and maybe for oil and maybe to finish what Bush Sr. didn't and maybe because Saddam was a bad guy and maybe because there could have been money moving between terrorist hands in Iraq does it really matter why? it's not going to bring them back any faster |
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Ziff B2BB BACKTOBASICSBITCHES Since: 11-18-05 From: A room Last post: 6294 days Last view: 6294 days |
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Originally posted by geeogree Yeah. Because governments need to be held accountable for their actions. If they cause a war they should be held to the grill iron for expending human life. |
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geeogree Red Cheep-cheep Since: 11-17-05 Last post: 6309 days Last view: 6294 days |
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| I agree, they should be held accountable. The lives shouldn't have been wasted.
And I don't think they were. A dictator was taken out of power, and an entire nation is working towards democracy that may help stabalize the middle east. I'd say that it was worth it. And it may end up destabalizing the entire area, but that's why we're working towards democracy. If democracy can take hold, then Iraq will be better for it. |
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Rom Manic Since: 12-18-05 From: Detroit, WHAT?! Last post: 6294 days Last view: 6294 days |
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Originally posted by Jomb I'm sure thats why North Korea is part of the Axis of Evil along with Iran and Iraq, 2 major oil producing countries. |
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Schweiz oder etwas [12:55] (Dr_Death16); I swear, the word drama needs to be stricken from the dictionary, for I've heard it so many times, it will permanently be imprinted on my brain  Since: 11-17-05 From: Kingston, Rhode Island Last post: 6294 days Last view: 6294 days |
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| How are they an axis? They're not even fully allied. | |||
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Ziff B2BB BACKTOBASICSBITCHES Since: 11-18-05 From: A room Last post: 6294 days Last view: 6294 days |
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| I don't think Iran and Iraq had much - if any - normalized relations. I don't think North Korea has normalized relations beyond some basic arms sales with Iran. | |||
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Rom Manic Since: 12-18-05 From: Detroit, WHAT?! Last post: 6294 days Last view: 6294 days |
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| They aren't allied. President Bush identified them as such regardless of their political stance with each other.
That was a while back, though...You didn't know? |
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Ziff B2BB BACKTOBASICSBITCHES Since: 11-18-05 From: A room Last post: 6294 days Last view: 6294 days |
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| I believe that I and Grey were ridiculing the concept of the Axis of Evil. | |||
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Jomb Deddorokku Since: 12-03-05 From: purgatory Last post: 6297 days Last view: 6297 days |
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| If it was all about defying international will and being a menace to world security we'd have been in North Korea when they threatened nuclear war. If it was all about wanting to stand up for human rights and democracy we'd be backing Taiwan against China and helping to free the much oppressed country of Tibet from China. We dont do these things because US government dont give a rats ass about democracy in the world, in fact they have historically set up dictatorships in foreign countries. Spreading democracy is just a political wording of what amounts to an invasion, used to get the people behind a war that is primarily about oil. Because just maybe the people would actually have not wanted to go to war just for $$$. | |||
Sin Dogan   860  Uoodo Original Blend Armored Trooper Votoms Canned Coffee! Since: 11-17-05 Last post: 6299 days Last view: 6298 days |
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Originally posted by Rom Manic Yea, I might've not liked the Taliban at all, but that's the one thing they managed to do right. And I wouldn't justify the attack on Afghanistan either... Gunships opening fire on whole villages and mowing people down is really inexcusable. And no matter how you look at it, there really is no "good" side in the Israeli conflict. Running over women and children with tanks, having helicopters open fire on buildings, and bulldozing their houses is not any better than suicide bombing innocent people. |
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