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| Acmlm's Board - I3 Archive - ROM Hacking - If you hack roms.... (questions) |
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ShadowTails Grizzo                   Since: 11-20-05 From: C:\My Documents\ShadowTails\My House\My Room Last post: 6310 days Last view: 6288 days |
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| I for one know that roms are in the aspect of illegalty, but still, a common hobby, thousands of rom sites and hacking sites, if the government wants to waste time stopping bytes of games going through computers, then that would take a really really really... long time...
Far as I see it, You can own any game you want, you can let friends borrow the games, and so on and so fourth, whoop de do... on the other hand, roms just provide the ability to see what its like to make games, to hack roms isn't really considered legal at all, but not many people know what roms are, I could litterally talk to a police man and he wouldn't know most likley, if you ask me the government is more conserned with making our lives misserable, and putting people behind bars that are doing illegal things that are noticable, I don't think your going to be arrested because you downloaded a rom, and you aren't going to be arrested if you use a flash cart, or anything of sorts that are in that area, unless you are selling fake copies of the games, or pirating them and selling them as well, which is removing logos or making new games and claming them to be, real games... If you are worried abour the legalty of roms, you don't need to lie awake at night and wonder, these are mere copies of games that you can easily buy (GBA,DS,PS2,XBOX(360),GC) and ones that you can't, (NES, GENS, ect.) as far as I see it, hacking roms isn't anything illegal unless you are trying to pass it off as your own game fully, this is why sonic rom hackers and other hackers put the date of the original game's creation, and the original creators... rather than saying its theres fully. Little bytes that can be sent through the internet isn't visual, its virtual, I don't think anyone is going to be arrested for hacking roms or having them, I have had roms on my computers since I was 8 years old, and no one has said a thing about it... Sites that have roms, they can have them on there sites if they are allowed to, like countries where its rare to see a computer, I recall some fake incidents that are jokes saying that nintendo or sega told them to remove there sites... Other things are usually not true, if a game has been made, and you can't "buy" it, then it probly is more legal than having the game and you can buy it, ebay isn't an actual walk in store. So just hack roms, no one is going to know unless you say, "I hack roms." everyone I talk to about them, they are 90% likley to not know what they are... Roms, are illegal... but not many people care about there games being on the internet, some roms I just use as an advantage to see what the game was like, I don't have a lot of money to waste on games I know I wont like, and using the internet I can try the games out... or hack them to make things the way I want to see them, I can garentee Nintendo or SEGA are going to tell you to stop hacking thier games, and IPS patches are legal, another thing a lot of people don't know are... if people don't know about it, how can it be illegal? and another thing Everythings Legal till you get caught, I don't think this is one of those getting caught scenarios... So in conclusion Go ahead download roms Go ahead Hack roms Go ahead Make IPS patches there is a few percent chance you will be caught for doing so, and if you are caught, then you must've tried really hard... |
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HyperHacker Star Mario Finally being paid to code in VB! If only I still enjoyed that. <_< Wii #7182 6487 4198 1828   Since: 11-18-05 From: Canada, w00t! My computer's specs, if anyone gives a damn. STOP TRUNCATING THIS >8^( Last post: 6288 days Last view: 6288 days |
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| Interesting semi-related question... what about decompiled game source codes? Like if you take the ROM and reverse-engineer it into a fully labelled, editable source code, without ever having seen the original code, how legal is the code you've created? You could argue that it's just the ROM itself in another format, but then you could also say it's code you wrote yourself, designed to function according to a very strict specification (the way the ROM does). | ||||||||||
Metal Knuckles Tendoru  Since: 12-21-05 From: New Hampshire Last post: 6288 days Last view: 6288 days |
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| I dunno. I guess it would be a question of "does a copyright hold through a conversion?" The data itself, whil looking different, is still the same, isn't it? But I guess on the other hand, the conversion would be a person creating data, and therefore their own ROM. Interesting question. | ||||||||||
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HyperHacker Star Mario Finally being paid to code in VB! If only I still enjoyed that. <_< Wii #7182 6487 4198 1828 Since: 11-18-05 From: Canada, w00t! My computer's specs, if anyone gives a damn. STOP TRUNCATING THIS >8^( Last post: 6288 days Last view: 6288 days |
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| Not only that, but depending how exactly you decompiled it and what assembler/compile you rebuild it with, the output may not be 100% identical. Especially if you decompiled it into C code, where different compilers with different settings and different optimizations may generate very different code which is still functionally identical. Even in ASM, an assembler might optimize differently than the original (or you might even go in yourself and make some tweaks/fix some bugs/etc). The result is a program that still functions exactly like the original, but no longer is the original; if compared you'd most likely find large portions modified and shifted around.
This could be viewed about the same as converting a downloaded MP3 to another format or a different bit rate, but are they truly the same? MP3s aren't programs after all. And what if you recompiled this code for a different platform? It's no longer the original and chances are the raw data's not even close to matching, but it still does the same thing. (edited by HyperHacker on 01-02-06 01:03 AM) |
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Stifu Since: 11-18-05 From: Your mom's bed Last post: 6290 days Last view: 6288 days |
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| The code itself might be legal then, but not the graphics, the dialogues, the story, etc... I guess.
And personally, if I was going to make a ROM from scratch, I wouldn't try to mimic an existing game but I'd make a totally new one... But I'm getting off topic. (edited by Stifu on 01-06-06 08:52 AM) |
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HyperHacker Star Mario Finally being paid to code in VB! If only I still enjoyed that. <_< Wii #7182 6487 4198 1828 Since: 11-18-05 From: Canada, w00t! My computer's specs, if anyone gives a damn. STOP TRUNCATING THIS >8^( Last post: 6288 days Last view: 6288 days |
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| I'm talking about decompiling a game back into source code, though. | ||||||||||
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Twytch Newcomer Since: 01-06-06 From: Japanada (inside joke) Last post: 6696 days Last view: 6696 days |
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| Okay, I'm not sure if anyone's said this already,
because I honestly don't care to read every rant, but basically, I think the cops are too stupid to tell the difference between roms and computer games, and even if they know what a rom is, they probably won't know they're illegal, and if you get caught, just tell them you thought they were just computer games, or you didn't know they were illegal. If they question the hacking thing, it's purely recreational, and you're not using your crazy mad 1337 skills in a malicious manner, so as long as you're not a moron running through the streets yelling "I have illegal romzors!", you won't get nailed, because if the cops are asking you anything, or are searching through your computer, you've got much bigger problems than roms, my friend. If there are any cops reading this, I'm sorry if you think I called you stupid. Not all cops are stupid, but all the ones in this town are. Maybe you should chat with them and tell the to pick it up. They give a bad name to cops everywhere. Always hangin' out at the doughnut shop... And when Tim Horton's (the doughnut shop, my American friends) is closed, our cops go to Husky (a truck-stop that's open 24/7). But seriously, if you're a cop, what the hell are you even doing here? Investigating? Don't even go there, 'cause that's bull. Now go play your illegal roms like a good little cop. |
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Bane King Rope  Since: 11-22-05 Last post: 6333 days Last view: 6290 days |
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Originally posted by Twytch This guy said it in plain english... Another thing I would point out is that a popular cop tactic for arresting people is that when they feel they don't have any hard to pin you with is when they get niddy griddy. In my opion, they would only bother you about roms if let's say you hacked your local bank and failed. Then the suits would come not the cops. I guess like say'n cops are the pawns that get the popular illegal stuff. IE drugs,whores, murder, ect... but they don't give a rats fuck about oldass video game piracy but they might care if you are boot-leg'n XB360 games. As long as the games aren't brand spanking new you should stop spazing. |
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DarkPhoenix Red Goomba Since: 12-27-05 Last post: 6292 days Last view: 6292 days |
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| Regarding the decompilation of roms into sourcecode, you might want to check out the decompilation wiki - http://www.program-transformation.org/Transform/DeCompilation , particularly the Legality of Decompilation page
- "The exception allows reverse engineering of computer programs if the reverse engineer lawfully obtains the program, seeks permission from the copyright owner, only uses the results of their efforts to create an interoperable computer program and does not publish the results", according to the US DMCA. The same page has some information relevant to the usage of flash carts, as well. As far as flash carts go, it's a little up in the air, as of late. While the Sony Corp. of America vs. Universal City Studios case ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_Corp._v._Universal_City_Studios ) essentially ruled that manufacturers of blank media and related devices cannot be held liable for infringement by the user, the more recent MGM vs. Grokster case ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MGM_v._Grokster ) brought about the issue of intent, saying that if one who distributes a device promotes its use to infringe copyright, then that person or organization can be held liable for infringement by third parties. The point here is that, regardless of laws getting stricter on manufacturers, it is still accepted that there are other uses for these blank media devices, and so their use does not necessarily imply the infringement of copyright. So there's little need of concern for posessing a flash cart, as, similarly, it is not illegal to posess or sell drug paraphernalia - there needs to be proof of drug posession or usage. (correct me if I'm wrong here, I'm not exactly an expert on drug related legal issues) Regarding Twytch's remarks, he's absolutely right. There's hardly a rational reason to be concerned about being arrested or the like for anything related to ROMs, given the technical nature of the topic, the lack of media coverage of the topic, and the lack of severity of the infringement, among other things (well, the RIAA and MPAA may disagree, but this has nothing to do with them. Only the ESA need be concerned, and they're not, really.) I figure that kind of goes without saying, but, notwithstanding, it's useful to know the legal issues behind it, particularly in the event that you'll need to justify yourself to someone who may be a bit critical of the issue, a situation where "I didn't know" will hardly suffice. |
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Deleted User Banned    Since: 05-08-06 Last post: None Last view: 6288 days |
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| ROMS are only Illegal if you don't own the original cardititage thing. | ||||||||||
Disch Red Cheep-cheep Since: 12-10-05 Last post: 6568 days Last view: 6568 days |
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Originally posted by UZI in my pocket Owning the cartridge has nothing to do with it. If the copy is distributed illegally, then obtaining it is illegal. People distributing these ROMs do not have the legal authority to do so, therefore they are illegal to download. EDIT -- I swear I'm dyslexic. Thanks Andrew (edited by Disch on 01-06-06 08:24 PM) |
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Andy Zora Since: 11-17-05 Last post: 6617 days Last view: 6617 days |
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Owning the cartridge has nothing to do with it. If the copy is distributed illegally, then obtaining it is illegal. People distributing these ROMs do have have the legal authority to do so, therefore they are illegal to download. Did you make a mistake? |
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Deleted User Banned Since: 05-08-06 Last post: None Last view: 6288 days |
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| Ohh. I though it was Leagl; if you download the ROM and keep it if you have the Carditage. Ive seen some ROM sites that say that. | ||||||||||
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DarkPhoenix Red Goomba Since: 12-27-05 Last post: 6292 days Last view: 6292 days |
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| Distribution and posession are generally treated separately. For example, it is illegal to sell cigarettes to a minor, but it is not illegal for a minor to buy cigarettes, or be in posession of them. Regardless, Disch is correct. Not as a result of the fact that they're distributed illegally, but more, well, because they say so. According to http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-digital.html , even if we classify ROMs as computer software, it's illegal to load an infringing copy onto a computer (as you would be making a reproduction of the illegal copy in memory, by actually using this copy), so similarly, it would have to be assumed that downloading a copy of a game, even if you own it, is illegal. It wouldn't, however, be illegal to make the copy yourself. Granted, this isn't a legal document, but it is a government one, so, while I'm not sure off hand if Section 117 of Title 17 (the copyright act) actually says this flat out, that's likely how it would be interpreted by the currently conservative supreme court. So, if you ever find yourself in trouble in court (however unlikely), as a ROM hacker, you'd probably have a lot more luck arguing for "Fair Use" (Title 17, Section 107 - likely in regards to Criticism, Comment, or Research of said game) than claiming to have, by some absurd loophole, legally obtained the file. | ||||||||||
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Disch Red Cheep-cheep Since: 12-10-05 Last post: 6568 days Last view: 6568 days |
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Originally posted by UZI in my pocket They also say it's okay to try it for 24 hours and delete it and other nonsense that does not reflect the law in any way. Don't believe everything you read on the internet -- especially stuff from pirate sites.
My logic flows with copyright protection. The owner of the copyright is who has the say in how the item in question is to be distributed. If Nintendo wanted to freely distribute NES ROMs from their site, it would be perfectly legal for them... and for you to download and use them. The reason being they control the copyright. 3rd parties (ie: ROM sites) have no such control. Although your point on distribution/posession being treated seperately does make a lot of sense. Perhaps I need to brush up on my understanding. |
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DarkPhoenix Red Goomba Since: 12-27-05 Last post: 6292 days Last view: 6292 days |
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| Good point. Something else to note:
"WARNING: Copying of any Nintendo game is illegal and is strictly prohibited by domestic and international copyright laws. "Back-up" or "archival" copies are not authorized and are not necessary to protect your software. Violators will be prosecuted." ... "The Rental of this game without permission of Nintendo or its liscensees is strictly prohibited." - taken from page 41 of the Ocarina of Time instruction booklet That second one's possibly a stab at that "24 hour trial period" thing. The first one speaks for itself. Nintendo seems to deny you the right to even make your own copy, though the wording's a little shady. It says these copies are "not authorized and not necessary", but not "these copies are illegal"...unless of course somewhere in the copyright law it says that unauthorized copies are illegal, or something of the sort. |
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Imajin Bot Local Moderator Currently affected by 'No syndrome' ---!!!  Since: 12-05-05 From: Camineet, Palm Last post: 6288 days Last view: 6288 days |
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| I think the Nintendo warning is vague because the law is vague on the matter...
However, if I recall doesn't the law say that backup copies are legal? I think the "unneccessary" clause might be an attempt at misleading people into seeing it as illegal. (edited by Imajin on 01-06-06 10:33 PM) |
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Light PKMN Tektite  Since: 11-19-05 From: Cat Land Last post: 6646 days Last view: 6646 days |
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| Also, just thought I'd toss in that IPS patches are just as illegial. Don't know why, guess I should look into that.
Note This post above was quoted frm another person but it did not work for some reason......................................... ..................................................................................................................................... This is what I said V >ips Patches are not ilegial. Lets Look at it this way. Post Rom = Ban Post ips file = 1. Prase for a great game 2. Being destroyed for a crappy game. Ips patches are only the changes between 2 objects. Also having a rom is legal, if you dump it yourself.
Andy |
Zora Since: 11-17-05 Last post: 6617 days Last view: 6617 days
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Is the penalty imprisonment or a fine? |
DarkPhoenix |
Red Goomba Since: 12-27-05 Last post: 6292 days Last view: 6292 days
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It's possible that it's legal to have a ROM if you dump it yourself, but not entirely too likely. Nintendo states quite specifically on its webpage that game copying devices are illegal, and as I think we've established, Nintendo's fairly careful with their wording. The question would then be, is the ROM created, if you create it yourself from a legally owned copy of the game, with an illegal device, legal or illegal? Or, on the other hand, can we say that the Sony vs. Universal case protects the copying device (assuming it has other uses, aside from infringement), and then, would the ROM created be legal, and under what uses? Would it be legal to run this copy, if the original is in good condition, or could it only be used strictly for archival?
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Well, obviously this doesn't apply to most, who've pretty much obtained ROMs flat out illegally. So more, the question is, To what end would a person have to go to in order to hack a ROM, without breaking any laws? If ROM hacking is considered Fair Use, then none of this infringement business applies, but if it doesn't, then how can we create for ourselves, a legal ROM to hack? This is important if someone wanted to present a ROM hack to a company as part of their resume, or felt that their hack was of such high quality that they wanted to present it to a company to be officially released, for example. And, for reference, the penalty for copyright infringement is up to $30,000 for each work infringed, or up to $150,000 if the copyright owner proves willful infringement. But, keep in mind that these laws were created with the intention of attacking distributers of infringed works, not individual users. No need to be paranoid about just having ROMs on your computer. Granted, the RIAA considers anyone they find sharing music on a file sharing network to be a distributer. They've sued everyone from 12 year olds to senior citizens (that's not an exxageration). Luckily, the video game industry isn't so depraved. For the most part, all they've done is sent nasty letters to websites distributing ROMs, demanding that they shut down, as far as I've heard. |
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