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| Acmlm's Board - I3 Archive - ROM Hacking - General Super Mario 64 hacking / TT64 Progress thread |
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| Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 | Add to favorites | Next newer thread | Next older thread |
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spydark Newcomer                 Since: 01-26-06 Last post: 6662 days Last view: 6662 days |
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That actualy sounds cool,the toadstool icon could show a toad (small mushroom guy  )holding a wrench...alittle too specific with the name |
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sassal Newcomer  Since: 02-08-06 From: melbourne Last post: 6669 days Last view: 6669 days |
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| hi v1-tone do u know when the editor will be finished. | |||
Guy Perfect  Since: 11-18-05 Last post: 6296 days Last view: 6294 days |
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| I like that idea, SmallHacker, except I think acronyms are going too far. Just keep it a word and it will all be good.
But "It's-a Me 64" is just the kind of clever name to make this project memorable. (-: |
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Raccoon Sam Boomerang Brother Custom Title    Since: 11-20-05 From: Correct Last post: 6294 days Last view: 6294 days |
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Originally posted by sassal There is no excpected release date yet. And his name is not v1-tone. It's VL-Tone. |
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proffessor_gad Red Koopa  Since: 01-27-06 From: Mars Last post: 6324 days Last view: 6324 days |
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| Aaargh! This doesn't work either! - membres.lycos.fr/nes3d/M64EditDownload.htm
P.S.- It seems like some people are to good at using google... |
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VL-Tone Paratroopa  Since: 11-18-05 Last post: 6484 days Last view: 6484 days |
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| Wow, thanks for all the suggestions, they are all great ideas
Even if I don't choose any of your suggestions, it's very useful to get external ideas. I must admit that TOADSTOOL is the one that caught my attention more than others. I know one word is better but how about "Toad's Tool"? Or maybe "Toad's Tool 64"? But, I have an idea myself, tell me what you think: Carpenter 64 I was about to post something about it yesterday (but again, I closed my browser window by mistake), explaining why I think Mario is more of a carpenter in his soul than a plumber. It was a long explaination and I don't feel like rewriting it. Is Mario a plumber or a carpenter? I think that he's both, but I think his plumbing jobs were "on the side", while his main profession is still carpenter. It's debatable, and that's what makes it interesting as a name, as it would generate some light debate each time the name of this new Mario 64 editor is brought up in some forum. Edit: removed that off-topic part about where my nick comes from. (edited by VL-Tone on 02-10-06 12:51 AM) (edited by VL-Tone on 02-10-06 03:18 AM) |
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dcahrakos   490 Since: 11-17-05 Last post: 6511 days Last view: 6511 days |
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| I think he is more of a plumber then a carpenter...I dont think he has ever built anything has he? or uses wood like a carpenter would. but he goes down pipes, and does other plumber stuff... how about Plumber's Toolbox or something like that. | |||
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Kyoufu Kawa Intends to keep Rom Hacking in one piece until the end  Since: 11-18-05 From: Catgirl Central Station Last post: 6294 days Last view: 6294 days |
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| My preference goes to ToadsTool.
IMHO, Mario -started- as a carpenter (DK). Between jobs, he took revenge on Kong (DK2). Because of his cruelty towards Kong, Pauline left him. DK3 does not have Mario, he's prolly sulking. MB has him fully back in action as a plumber, together with Luigi. They have a gig in a hotel's basement and from there, they go straight to SMB1. Just my ten cents. |
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VL-Tone Paratroopa Since: 11-18-05 Last post: 6484 days Last view: 6484 days |
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Originally posted by dcahrakos Ok, aside from the big green pipes, what other plumbing stuff does he do? (please exclude SMS) Originally posted by Kyoufu Kawa Oh please don't take into account the scenario from that awful Super Mario movie
I clearly remember Miyamoto saying in an interview (years ago) that the plumber stuff came from the US marketing department, with the movie and the (also awful) cartoon. He contradicted himself on that more recently, but I think he just gave up on explaining it, and since the overwhelming majority thinks he's a plumber, he decided to treat him as such, starting in Super Mario Sunshine with the water stuff. For me it always made sense, but I just found that I didn't have the right definition for the word carpenter. I had the French word "charpentier" in mind when I read or heard carpenter, and it has a wider and different meaning. The thing is, "charpentier" fits the Mario series much better than plumber and carpenter. It's possible that the Japanese translator also spoke French, and did the same mistake as I did when translating Mario's job for english documentation. He's probably the same that is responsible for the "Donkey" in DK, which is also a mistranslation. The word "carpenter" has latin roots, but it likely comes from Italian or French. In French, "charpentier" has two meanings. The oldest, is close to the English definition: "Person skilled in woodworking". The most recent definition for "charpentier" is: Person that is responsible for designing and/or installing a building frame or "skeleton", which is called in french "la charpente". He also has to install stairs and other related things. Building frames were made out of wood until the last century, where metal frames and cement started to be used in the construction of high rise buildings. Metal beams used in high rise building frames are often called I-beams, and V-beams, and the letter I and V being related to their shape. If anyone wants to stick to the English definition of carpenter, which I suppose most everyone will, then tell me where is the woodwork in Donkey Kong and DK jr.? Barrels? Look at the levels in DK (and DK jr.), they are built out of metal beams, V-beams and I-beams. There are also ladders, elevators, rivets, conveyor belts and cement like the one you would expect on a 191x high rise metal frame being built. Wood barrels and metal barrels with oil also fit very well in this context. I'm sure everyone here has saw in one form or another a cartoon or old black & white movie where some character is walking on the metal frame of a high rise building in construction, avoiding obstacles and jumping over gaps along the way, and later finding himself on a moving platform (often an I-beam or metal pipe with a rope tied in the middle). It's obvious (to me at least) that Miyamoto had that mind when creating Donkey Kong. As for Mario Bros. I think it was released at a time when Nintendo of America started to handle the marketing in the US. So NOA probably wrote a little scenario for the instruction manual and decided that since there were pipes in the levels (and water at the bottom that has no gameplay purpose), that the Bros. were plumbers. Maybe NOA called Miyamoto to tell him that carpenter was not a good thing to use, explaining that the english definition of the word didn't fit well. This is speculation so I could concede that they were plumbers in that game, but only in that one. A charpentier has to be skilled when it comes to walking and jumping on narrow platforms. This is the skill that Mario predominantly uses in all games in the main series, and that can even applied to the dreamland of SMB2 US. Still, there are other clues that Mario is still a charpentier in SMB1. His duty is also to make sure everything fits well with the frame, and that includes working with bricklaying guys. A charpentier having to renovate or realign the frame of an already built brick house will have to dismantle the bricks to access the frame. The [?] boxes found in SMB1 are also a typical element of a building frame some kind of metal box or plate with 4 screws in the corners. You can also find moving platforms in SMB1 made of I-beams. The structure of levels in SMB1, SMB3 and SMW are similar to unfinished buildings. In Super Mario 64, there are tons of brick patterns, elevators, concrete, metal and wood platforms and narrow platforms where Mario has to be careful just like on a high rise construction site. Kicking a giant wooden board (in Whomp's fortress) to make a bridge is something a cartoonish charpentier would do. Another thing to note: there are very few pipes in SM64... But hey I'll probably come out as a wacko for this theory, I've never seen anything about it on the web. "Who does he think he his to assume that carpenter was a mistranslation because the translator also spoke French?". To me, it all fits too well. I guess it's hard to believe for anyone that doesn't speak French (and/or hate French), since I could have invented the definition. You could try to translate this page with google: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charpentier_%28métier%29 though the result maybe confusing 
Sorry if it was long, I got carried by my theory because I found (today) that it made much more sense with the French definition. Maybe I could write a thesis on that! Seeing all I had to write to back up my claim, I won't be using "Carpenter 64" and don't worry, I won't use "Charpentier 64" either! I don't want to have to explain that again each time I present the editor.
I hope at least a few of you found my theory interesting, though I'm sure some will find it a little wacky. I guess we're back with ToadsTool. I would like Toad's Tool 64 better. Or maybe Mario 64 Architect? I don't know... nothing is set in stone yet! (edited by VL-Tone on 02-11-06 12:24 AM) |
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Keitaro Mole Since: 11-18-05 From: Massachusetts Last post: 6452 days Last view: 6452 days |
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| Actualy, the Donkey in DK was a result of a poor phone connection. It was originaly supposed to be Monkey Kong, but after the mishap, Miyamoto ended up likeing DK and therefor stuck with it for the name of the game/character. | |||
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Guy Perfect Since: 11-18-05 Last post: 6296 days Last view: 6294 days |
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| Then it's settled. Mokey Kong 64 is the name of the editor. (It was the best I could do to get it back on topic) | |||
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VL-Tone Paratroopa Since: 11-18-05 Last post: 6484 days Last view: 6484 days |
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Oh well thanks for the correction. that throws my whole theory out of the window  Nahhh not really, Miyamoto doesn't speak English very well, and probably even less in those days so he probably had someone translate Mario's job description for him and that's where the mistranslation happened.
The core question that I would like anyone here to answer is: If Mario was a wood worker (carpenter), then why, aside from barrels, is there no wood in DK? By a weird coincidence, the levels in DK look like metal building frames, which is in French called a charpente. And the job of a charpentier happens to include walking on building frames and platforms, sometimes high in the air, climbing ladders and carrying tools like hammers, putting rivets to install metal beams, working with cement etc. So it fits perfectly with the DK setting. But yeah this is getting out of topic. Go Monkey Kong 64! 
Yeah this is a screenshot from a crappy DK port on the TRS-80 CoCo 2 that is really called Monkey Kong. Edit: Ok to really get back on topic, I compiled a list of all 3d objects refered by the game, and there are 478 of them! They are defined in 49 different geometry layout segments. I also built the list to include which MIO0 files these geometry layout segment use for the polygon and texture data. That will be useful to be able to manage segments. The editor only provide access to objects that have their segments loaded using 0x18 0x1A and 0x17 commands. Geo:1279B0 MIO0:114750 Ptrs: [0, 28, 56, 132, 156, 292, 360, 444, 560, 644, 11732] The pointers are in decimal, they are to be added to the Geo address. the MIO0 pointer indicates which segment is used by that geometry layout script, so that particular MIO0 file has to be loaded in order to use that geometry layout script. (Yet another edit: I removed 4 entries in the list that didn't make sense) (edited by VL-Tone on 02-11-06 02:28 AM) (edited by VL-Tone on 02-11-06 02:31 AM) (edited by VL-Tone on 02-11-06 02:34 AM) (edited by VL-Tone on 02-11-06 02:45 AM) (edited by VL-Tone on 02-11-06 02:46 AM) |
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Kyoufu Kawa Intends to keep Rom Hacking in one piece until the end Since: 11-18-05 From: Catgirl Central Station Last post: 6294 days Last view: 6294 days |
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| I didn't get the hotel gig thing from the movie. I got it from common sense and plotholes to fill. Besides, the movie didn't even mention any hotels. Just a nondescript sewery cave at a dig site with a "fake" wall, not at all unlike the portraits in M64 really...
I'll shut up now |
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richyawyingtmv Bouncy Since: 11-18-05 From: England Last post: 6296 days Last view: 6294 days |
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| I know this is off-topic, but Miyamoto did NOT ever want Donkey Kong to be called Monkey Kong.
He called him Donkey Kong, because he thought Donkey meant 'Stubborn' in english. From Wikipedia: 'The unusual name of the game is commonly believed to be due to a mistranslation of the Japanese for "monkey", but Shigeru Miyamoto actually intended for it to have this name. The "Kong" part is obvious, but the "Donkey" part represents "Stubborn."' (edited by richyawyingtmv on 02-11-06 06:07 AM) (edited by richyawyingtmv on 02-11-06 06:08 AM) |
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Kyoufu Kawa Intends to keep Rom Hacking in one piece until the end Since: 11-18-05 From: Catgirl Central Station Last post: 6294 days Last view: 6294 days |
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| That's about as much a fact as that Mario wears a cap because, to this day, Shiggy can't draw hair. | |||
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Guy Perfect Since: 11-18-05 Last post: 6296 days Last view: 6294 days |
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| Monky Hair 64. Fine. That's the name of the editor.
Can we keep it on-topic, now? |
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Raccoon Sam Boomerang Brother Custom Title Since: 11-20-05 From: Correct Last post: 6294 days Last view: 6294 days |
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| That's actually good, man.
"Monkey Hair 64" Think about it dude. That's awesome. |
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VL-Tone Paratroopa Since: 11-18-05 Last post: 6484 days Last view: 6484 days |
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| Some update on what I'm currently doing in the editor. (I guess I should do that more often)
I'm working on improving the speed of the level drawing routines. Levels with hundreds of objects can take a long time to draw (a minute or two for the whole level and objects). But take into account that my computer is also reeeeeaaaalllllyyyy slow and very old though, but I'm getting a new one that will be much faster, at the begining of March. It still won't be a powerhouse computer, but will be in line with what people have here on average. But anyway don't worry, there is room for improvement, because currently the level drawing routines take a very dumb approach. The editor reads the script, and then draw every 0x24, 0x39 and 0x43 objects, by reading and decoding the GBI (n64 graphic lib) commands from the ROM on the disk. It does that each time, even for objects that are duplicated... I'm currently working on a feature that detects if a 3d object was already decoded and built, and procede to clone the 3d model instead of decoding it again. Another feature I'm working on is having wireframe selection boxes that have a size that is relative to the object so that the object always appear inside the box. I'll stop using 3 colors on each box, and instead use color coding to differentiate the 3 types of objects, and which one is selected. |
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Guy Perfect Since: 11-18-05 Last post: 6296 days Last view: 6294 days |
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| 3D objects are usually loaded into display lists before any decoding is conducted in the first place. This means that no matter what is used for any given level, the 3D data is already there for it and ready to use. Simplistic 3D things like general N64 use a series of display lists interconnected with a modular skeleton, such that each display list represents a static "piece" of the whole where the model needs not generate new polygons each frame; even when it moves.
That's the approach I took for the F-Zero X editor. The track itself is generated into a display list once and displayed. Every kind of object that can possibly be used in a level is loaded into display lists before any levels are even decoded. Then, the entire level to be used is decoded into RAM. All variables, values, references, etc. The whole thing. Then it's all just a matter of drawing the display lists with the correct modelview matrix values (that's a GL thing) to build the final scene. Here's an example to help demonstrate exactly what I'm trying to say:  (edited by BGNG on 02-11-06 09:54 PM) |
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VL-Tone Paratroopa Since: 11-18-05 Last post: 6484 days Last view: 6484 days |
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| Just to be sure you don't think I'm that dumb, I don't reload and redecode objects each time they are moved.
Your approach is ideal, but is not as easy to use with SM64 There are 478 objects found in the game, and each of those can be made of multiple parts. I still haven't figured the geometry layout data in its entirety, and its relation to the "skeleton" data. Many of the 478 objects are themselves composed of sub-parts which are put in a hierarchy in the geometry layout data. The thing is I still don't know how parts are positionned in space. Most objects that are one or 2 parts and don't have any pivots can be displayed correctly, but the animated characters have their body parts drawn all at the same position. But let's get back to my point, creating display lists (that contains polygon data right?) for all those 478 objects and their sub-parts would take too much time, well at least in Director/Shockwave. Maybe I could pre-calculate those lists and include them in the editor but that would be ehmmm... not good? Since Mario 64 can only use specific sets of objects in a given level, I decided to load objects for specific levels only when they are needed in a level, to shorten the time it took to load the level. Also this approach was implemented at a time when I didn't have the list of all 478 objects. It's not a list of offset found somewhere in the ROM. I had to write a not so simple routine to generate it. What I think I will do (for now) is generate/draw meshes on a level basis, creating/drawing only those that can be used in a given level, then cloning them when the level is actually drawn. When the user changes the object type, the old one is deleted then the replacement is created by cloning the corresponding model. Creating a mesh from a displaylist is not as straightforward in Director and would add too much overhead, cloning is faster. I guess I shouldn't have said how much time the biggest levels took to load on my very old computer, don't worry, it will be much much less than that. (let's say 15 seconds in the worst case on a 1.2 GHz computer) One of the main culpit (beside the current redundency when loading objects) is disk access, which has to be done byte by byte because for some reason Director stops reading on byte "00". This could be solved by using an Xtra, which is a plug-in used to extend Director. One of these, the BinaryIO Xtra, is much faster than the built-in disk acces. The only thing, it's shareware, and the unregistered version displays a dialog each time you start the .exe version of the Director movie. Yeah it's a pain, but Lingo is what I know... |
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| Acmlm's Board - I3 Archive - ROM Hacking - General Super Mario 64 hacking / TT64 Progress thread |
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