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Xkeeper Posts: 3279/5653 |
Originally posted by Glyph PhoenixOriginally posted by HyperHacker Well-written code needs little to no modification to run on various OSes. I know for a fact Acmlm's RPG battle client compiled under both Windows and Linux and ran great in both, with no code modification required. |
Goldensunboy Posts: 138/287 |
Originally posted by FuSoYa, from the archiveYep, unless someone goes to his house and hacks his computer, noon'e ever getting Lunar Magic's source. As he said, separate tools can be designed (and tons have already been made, about half of them by Smallhacker. ). If the smart people *GSBoy backs away* make a new editor for SMW, then the whole discussion of this thread would be possible. |
wtfweb Posts: 80/124 |
so umm
fusoya's said that he will never, under any circumstances, release lunar magic's source? |
Glyphodon Posts: 346/536 |
Originally posted by HyperHacker I'd say trying a big project and failing causes harm, and I'd say trying to make a big project that needs a lot of work before it becomes useful to much of anyone is kind of a waste, too. I've already said pretty much everything I have to say against that, though. Originally posted by HyperHacker I'm basing it on how various "general" SMW editors have turned out. Lunar Magic worked out well as a general editor, true, but it wasn't made while a powerful editor already existed that does the same thing. Originally posted by HyperHacker I said it would be nice. I meant that keeping more than one version for different OS's would involve even more work and make things more complicated, as if a project like this weren't already. I also meant that if a new editor were made for the different operating systems, the editor still wouldn't be completely compatible with LM. I didn't say that right at all, though. |
HyperHacker Posts: 2981/5072 |
Originally posted by Glyph Phoenix Are you basing this on how buggy and incomplete HOM is? Because that version's really old. Anyway if someone tries and fails, no harm done. If they succeed, bonus. You may have a point in regards to adding complication but I think good coding should help for the most part. The only thing that gets me is that you think a multi-platform editor is a bad idea. WTF? |
Glyphodon Posts: 345/536 |
Support for both memory mapping methods would just make things more complicated. There's already a good standard like there's already a good SMW editor. Incompatibilities and lots of rewritten features are no good.
And yes, while an editor for other OS's would be nice, that just means more incompatiblities and incompatible features. It's not that I believe a new Lunar Magic wouldn't be helpful in some ways, it's that I firmly believe nobody capable of doing so truly wants to spend the time making it and nobody who truly wants to spend their time making a new Lunar Magic is capable of doing so. Go ahead, try and prove me wrong. Just remember that I told you so when all you've gotten done is a buggy, pre-alpha level editor that does a couple mildly useful tricks and you decide you don't want to work on it anymore. Realism does change the world. It allows us an accurate view of it, and that's a valuable thing indeed. |
HyperHacker Posts: 2973/5072 |
Originally posted by Glyph PhoenixOriginally posted by HyperHacker Well there you go. If LM were open-source I could implement the separate-file method while you keep using a version that uses RATS. Or add both. Raccoon Sam also brings up one of the best points regarding open-source - closed-source programs can't be ported to other operating systems (except by the author, obviously). |
Raccoon Sam Posts: 741/1040 |
Open Source-ness-ness would also provide Operating System independence eventually.
Oh, I can only imagine SMW level editor for OSX _¬ |
Stifu Posts: 438/647 |
Originally posted by Glyph Phoenix Overall, I think that trying to make a new editor that'd be more flexible can only benefit the SMW hacking scene... on the other hand, I think there are many other games that would deserve the attention more that SMW... Games that currently have no editor at all. |
Sukasa Posts: 1510/2068 |
Actually, I prefer the in-ROM RATS tag myself... That's another advantqage of an open-source editor: support for both methods could be achieved.
And a RATS2 system that would allow larger amounts of data to be reserved would be win in my book. |
Disruptive Idiot Posts: 41/56 |
I meant for this example, Hyper Hacker said that it would be best to store the sprite graphics uncompressed in the rom (or low-level compression) so that they could be dynamically loaded. Lunar Magic wouldn't be able to work with these decompressed graphics, so you'd have to manually insert them, but LM wouldn't know they existed. An open source editor would also be upgradeable so that the community can keep adding features, even if the original programmers were long gone. You gotta think of it in the long run, right now we have Lunar Magic and dozens of mini-utilities. If there was an open source editor all these things could be integrated into one development kit, but instead we have a hodge-podge of stuff. Your realism is appreciated, but realism never changed the world. Not really, no. A few bytes in-rom to map a reserved space is less annoying than another file we'll have to drag around along with hacks. The separate file could be placed in an archive with the rom, this would be your project file. When you release the rom, you release the .smc within the archive. One development archive, one release file. |
Glyphodon Posts: 343/536 |
Originally posted by Stifu It's not that it's not possible to make a new Lunar Magic, I just don't think it's worth attempting. Fu was very good at what he did, and redoing all his work for no real reason just doesn't seem like a good idea. Why? Sprite Tool, Blocktool, and the HDMA patch all seem to work with Lunar Magic... what missing feature is so important that all that work needs to be redone? Originally posted by HyperHacker Lunar Magic is an exceptional utility, no more and no less. If you know of software that does something as complex as LM while having as few bugs and is as user-friendly and fun to use, by all means, tell me so I can download it. Originally posted by HyperHacker I was implying that such a utility would be more popular than Lunar Magic, it just just not likely to exist. A new Lunar Magic is a theoretical, n00b's wishlist type of item because it would take a lot of work for no solid reason. Originally posted by Boom.dk Heh heh heh... I certainly don't think so. C++ is a totally different ballpark: Memory management, compilation, and low level work make things very different than PHP which is primarily used for HTML preprocessing. Originally posted by HyperHacker Not really, no. A few bytes in-rom to map a reserved space is less annoying than another file we'll have to drag around along with hacks. |
HyperHacker Posts: 2968/5072 |
Originally posted by Sukasa + Because everyone submits the info to SMW Central instead. :p Also the screenshot is here. Notice he only seems to have one file open, and it's scrolled ~1/4 down at line 6128. RATS is a good example of why open-source is a good thing. Personally I never liked the idea of using data in the ROM itself to mark sections as used. It makes it difficult to mark sections within the existing ROM. A separate file defining these regions makes a bit more sense. |
Sukasa Posts: 1507/2068 |
Well, if this gets goign I already can think of one thing it can improve over LM one: RATS tags. Perhaps you could add compatibility for them, but for Blocktool Omega, I have a problem where there is no safe way to protect 4 1/2 banks of data tables... thus, LM itself would stand a good chance of corrupting the tables and rashing SMW... I've ocme up with a workaround - filling the table entries with $8080 as the "not used" word, which should hopefully stop LM from overwriting the BTO table... at the expense of two unused activation bitflags. not bad, but then again not good either. |
Boom.dk Posts: 296/356 |
I would also help making such a program. If I can, that is. I don't know any programming language but PHP, and my knowledge about SMW is limited. I'm willing to learn, though. And AFAIK C++ and PHP are very alike. |
Sukasa Posts: 1504/2068 |
You'd have to show me that link HH, I've never see that screenshot. And messy code is in the eye of the beholder IMO. However, we still don't know as much about SMW as FuSoYa does...
So Why on earth are there so few updates to the SMW entry on datacrystal? It's kinda silly, I've probably made over half of all updates to that page... |
HyperHacker Posts: 2959/5072 |
Originally posted by Glyph Phoenix You seem to have the same opinion as many n00bs here. You think LM is the best thing ever made. It's very good, sure, but it's not the holy grail of software you make it out to be. There are plenty of programs (not necessarily level editors) available now that are just as good. Yes, it took Fu a long time, but this is mainly because: 1) He had little prior experience in the field and wrote messy code (evidenced by a screenshot on his website showing that all LM's code is in one huge file). 2) He had to discover everything about the game himself. We already have plenty of information to go by, plus far better tools. 3) Laziness and/or business. One version coming out a year after the previous one doesn't mean that version took a year's worth of work. Originally posted by HyperHacker Obviously I meant if one was made, hence, "why wouldn't it be" as opposed to "why isn't it". |
Sukasa Posts: 1501/2068 |
Well, you need a realist stifu... doesn't mean we can't still prove him wrong on this one though |
Stifu Posts: 429/647 |
Whether this new SMW editor project fails or not, that pessimism is uncalled for, Glyph. If everyone had that kind of mindset, Genecyst might still be the best Mega Drive emulator, for example... Probably not the most fitting one. :p
Just let them try their best. FuSoYa is human, his work can be surpassed. |
Glyphodon Posts: 341/536 |
Originally posted by Disruptive Idiot That's not true at all. Does LM even mess with the way SMW handles sprites? Even if it does, I'm sure there's working around that. Thinking a new LM is needed to support a nonexistant, theoretical sprite engine is beyond unreasonable. Originally posted by HyperHacker If you have an editor as good as Lunar Magic or someone who can build editors as well as FuSoYa hidden away somewhere, by all means, share with the class. Sure, there are those who could whip something up, but just because an editor is open-source does not make it worthy of replacing Lunar Magic. Originally posted by HyperHacker Because it doesn't exist. Equalling Lunar Magic's features is a gargantuan, thankless task because whatever falls into that category has been done before and done well. That's why I don't believe it's going to be done any time in the near future. Originally posted by Smallhacker Smally, bless your little status bar editor making heart, but you're no FuSoYa. Don't pull a SMW Development Environment and code a utility just to add a lackluster palette feature or some such and then just give up. Originally posted by Sukasa + Admirable solution, but it's an inevitable conclusion. |
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