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Acmlm's Board - I3 Archive - SMW Hacking - ASM hack idea. (Sprite graphics related)

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[quote=Glyphodon]Naturally, the game should have a table of what graphics are loaded. If the koopa section is loaded, then when another koopa appears the table will be read and no new graphics will be loaded because the needed one is already there.

For concerns like the Paratroopa, keep in mind that one sprite doesn't have to load one graphic... A paratroopa could load both the wings and the koopa graphics into RAM. If Winged Goombas, Koopas, or other Paratroopas haven't forced the game to load said graphics already, anyway... that's what the table would be for.

For palette manipulation, you could just live with the fact that you can't use two sprites that use different palettes that share the same space. Alternately,  the last two palettes could be loaded dynamically when a sprite that uses one of those two palettes appears... those are the only ones that could possibly cause a clash, right?

Using this idea of yours, you might not ever have to check to see what graphics you have loaded again. It's a nice idea, but does anyone really want to code all this for what often can be done with ExGFX anyway?[/quote]

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Xkeeper Posts: 3279/5653	Originally posted by Glyph Phoenix Originally posted by HyperHacker The only thing that gets me is that you think a multi-platform editor is a bad idea. I said it would be nice. I meant that keeping more than one version for different OS's would involve even more work and make things more complicated, as if a project like this weren't already. I also meant that if a new editor were made for the different operating systems, the editor still wouldn't be completely compatible with LM. I didn't say that right at all, though. Well-written code needs little to no modification to run on various OSes. I know for a fact Acmlm's RPG battle client compiled under both Windows and Linux and ran great in both, with no code modification required.
Goldensunboy Posts: 138/287	Originally posted by FuSoYa, from the archive Rather than address all the individual points that have been brought up, I'll cut to the heart of the matter. The primary problem I have with releasing LM's source is two-fold: 1) I'm neutral on open source in general, and tend towards closed source for my own projects. It's simply a matter of personal preference, as I'm aware of the pros and cons of both. While I have released source before, there must usually be a compelling reason to do so to overcome my own reluctance in the matter. Which brings us to the second point... 2) It's done. Originally posted by BMF54123 FuSoYa doesn't want to release the source, FuSoYa doesn't have to release the source. Plain and simple. It's his and he can do as he pleases with it, and this constant pestering of him to release it got old a long time ago. He's gone FAR above and beyond the call of duty in giving us as fully-featured an editor as he did, considering it was done in his free time, and he got NO compensation for it. Now, think about it--is it really fair to pester him for ANYTHING? How do you think he feels, being asked to give and give and give some more, without receiving anything in return, except maybe an occasional "thx Fu "? I wholeheartedly concur with BMF's statement. Lunar Magic successfully does what it was designed to do, and does it exceedingly well in my opinion. I'm content to leave it as it is, except for any critical bugs that come to light. While I don't intend to go anywhere at the moment, I also don't intend to be at the forefront of SMW hacking now that LM's development is over and DWTLC is done. If this community wishes to grow from here on in, it will have to start taking the initiative to do so on its own. Separate tools can indeed be made to edit what LM does not. Yep, unless someone goes to his house and hacks his computer, noon'e ever getting Lunar Magic's source. As he said, separate tools can be designed (and tons have already been made, about half of them by Smallhacker. ). If the smart people GSBoy backs away make a new editor for SMW, then the whole discussion of this thread would be possible.
wtfweb Posts: 80/124	so umm fusoya's said that he will never, under any circumstances, release lunar magic's source?
Glyphodon Posts: 346/536	Originally posted by HyperHacker Anyway if someone tries and fails, no harm done. I'd say trying a big project and failing causes harm, and I'd say trying to make a big project that needs a lot of work before it becomes useful to much of anyone is kind of a waste, too. I've already said pretty much everything I have to say against that, though. Originally posted by HyperHacker Are you basing this on how buggy and incomplete HOM is? I'm basing it on how various "general" SMW editors have turned out. Lunar Magic worked out well as a general editor, true, but it wasn't made while a powerful editor already existed that does the same thing. Originally posted by HyperHacker The only thing that gets me is that you think a multi-platform editor is a bad idea. I said it would be nice. I meant that keeping more than one version for different OS's would involve even more work and make things more complicated, as if a project like this weren't already. I also meant that if a new editor were made for the different operating systems, the editor still wouldn't be completely compatible with LM. I didn't say that right at all, though.
HyperHacker Posts: 2981/5072	Originally posted by Glyph Phoenix Just remember that I told you so when all you've gotten done is a buggy, pre-alpha level editor that does a couple mildly useful tricks and you decide you don't want to work on it anymore. Are you basing this on how buggy and incomplete HOM is? Because that version's really old. Anyway if someone tries and fails, no harm done. If they succeed, bonus. You may have a point in regards to adding complication but I think good coding should help for the most part. The only thing that gets me is that you think a multi-platform editor is a bad idea. WTF?
Glyphodon Posts: 345/536	Support for both memory mapping methods would just make things more complicated. There's already a good standard like there's already a good SMW editor. Incompatibilities and lots of rewritten features are no good. And yes, while an editor for other OS's would be nice, that just means more incompatiblities and incompatible features. It's not that I believe a new Lunar Magic wouldn't be helpful in some ways, it's that I firmly believe nobody capable of doing so truly wants to spend the time making it and nobody who truly wants to spend their time making a new Lunar Magic is capable of doing so. Go ahead, try and prove me wrong. Just remember that I told you so when all you've gotten done is a buggy, pre-alpha level editor that does a couple mildly useful tricks and you decide you don't want to work on it anymore. Realism does change the world. It allows us an accurate view of it, and that's a valuable thing indeed.
HyperHacker Posts: 2973/5072	Originally posted by Glyph Phoenix Originally posted by HyperHacker RATS is a good example of why open-source is a good thing. Personally I never liked the idea of using data in the ROM itself to mark sections as used. It makes it difficult to mark sections within the existing ROM. A separate file defining these regions makes a bit more sense. Not really, no. A few bytes in-rom to map a reserved space is less annoying than another file we'll have to drag around along with hacks. Well there you go. If LM were open-source I could implement the separate-file method while you keep using a version that uses RATS. Or add both. Raccoon Sam also brings up one of the best points regarding open-source - closed-source programs can't be ported to other operating systems (except by the author, obviously).
Raccoon Sam Posts: 741/1040	Open Source-ness-ness would also provide Operating System independence eventually. Oh, I can only imagine SMW level editor for OSX _Ź
Stifu Posts: 438/647	Originally posted by Glyph Phoenix It's not that it's not possible to make a new Lunar Magic, I just don't think it's worth attempting. Overall, I think that trying to make a new editor that'd be more flexible can only benefit the SMW hacking scene... on the other hand, I think there are many other games that would deserve the attention more that SMW... Games that currently have no editor at all.
Sukasa Posts: 1510/2068	Actually, I prefer the in-ROM RATS tag myself... That's another advantqage of an open-source editor: support for both methods could be achieved. And a RATS2 system that would allow larger amounts of data to be reserved would be win in my book.
Disruptive Idiot Posts: 41/56	That's not true at all. Does LM even mess with the way SMW handles sprites? Even if it does, I'm sure there's working around that. Thinking a new LM is needed to support a nonexistant, theoretical sprite engine is beyond unreasonable. I meant for this example, Hyper Hacker said that it would be best to store the sprite graphics uncompressed in the rom (or low-level compression) so that they could be dynamically loaded. Lunar Magic wouldn't be able to work with these decompressed graphics, so you'd have to manually insert them, but LM wouldn't know they existed. An open source editor would also be upgradeable so that the community can keep adding features, even if the original programmers were long gone. You gotta think of it in the long run, right now we have Lunar Magic and dozens of mini-utilities. If there was an open source editor all these things could be integrated into one development kit, but instead we have a hodge-podge of stuff. Your realism is appreciated, but realism never changed the world. Not really, no. A few bytes in-rom to map a reserved space is less annoying than another file we'll have to drag around along with hacks. The separate file could be placed in an archive with the rom, this would be your project file. When you release the rom, you release the .smc within the archive. One development archive, one release file.
Glyphodon Posts: 343/536	Originally posted by Stifu FuSoYa is human, his work can be surpassed. It's not that it's not possible to make a new Lunar Magic, I just don't think it's worth attempting. Fu was very good at what he did, and redoing all his work for no real reason just doesn't seem like a good idea. Why? Sprite Tool, Blocktool, and the HDMA patch all seem to work with Lunar Magic... what missing feature is so important that all that work needs to be redone? Originally posted by HyperHacker You seem to have the same opinion as many n00bs here. You think LM is the best thing ever made. It's very good, sure, but it's not the holy grail of software you make it out to be. There are plenty of programs (not necessarily level editors) available now that are just as good. Lunar Magic is an exceptional utility, no more and no less. If you know of software that does something as complex as LM while having as few bugs and is as user-friendly and fun to use, by all means, tell me so I can download it. Originally posted by HyperHacker Obviously I meant if one was made, hence, "why wouldn't it be" as opposed to "why isn't it". I was implying that such a utility would be more popular than Lunar Magic, it just just not likely to exist. A new Lunar Magic is a theoretical, n00b's wishlist type of item because it would take a lot of work for no solid reason. Originally posted by Boom.dk And AFAIK C++ and PHP are very alike. Heh heh heh... I certainly don't think so. C++ is a totally different ballpark: Memory management, compilation, and low level work make things very different than PHP which is primarily used for HTML preprocessing. Originally posted by HyperHacker RATS is a good example of why open-source is a good thing. Personally I never liked the idea of using data in the ROM itself to mark sections as used. It makes it difficult to mark sections within the existing ROM. A separate file defining these regions makes a bit more sense. Not really, no. A few bytes in-rom to map a reserved space is less annoying than another file we'll have to drag around along with hacks.
HyperHacker Posts: 2968/5072	Originally posted by Sukasa + So Why on earth are there so few updates to the SMW entry on datacrystal? Because everyone submits the info to SMW Central instead. :p Also the screenshot is here. Notice he only seems to have one file open, and it's scrolled ~1/4 down at line 6128. RATS is a good example of why open-source is a good thing. Personally I never liked the idea of using data in the ROM itself to mark sections as used. It makes it difficult to mark sections within the existing ROM. A separate file defining these regions makes a bit more sense.
Sukasa Posts: 1507/2068	Well, if this gets goign I already can think of one thing it can improve over LM one: RATS tags. Perhaps you could add compatibility for them, but for Blocktool Omega, I have a problem where there is no safe way to protect 4 1/2 banks of data tables... thus, LM itself would stand a good chance of corrupting the tables and rashing SMW... I've ocme up with a workaround - filling the table entries with $8080 as the "not used" word, which should hopefully stop LM from overwriting the BTO table... at the expense of two unused activation bitflags. not bad, but then again not good either.
Boom.dk Posts: 296/356	I would also help making such a program. If I can, that is. I don't know any programming language but PHP, and my knowledge about SMW is limited. I'm willing to learn, though. And AFAIK C++ and PHP are very alike.
Sukasa Posts: 1504/2068	You'd have to show me that link HH, I've never see that screenshot. And messy code is in the eye of the beholder IMO. However, we still don't know as much about SMW as FuSoYa does... So Why on earth are there so few updates to the SMW entry on datacrystal? It's kinda silly, I've probably made over half of all updates to that page...
HyperHacker Posts: 2959/5072	Originally posted by Glyph Phoenix If you have an editor as good as Lunar Magic or someone who can build editors as well as FuSoYa hidden away somewhere, by all means, share with the class. You seem to have the same opinion as many n00bs here. You think LM is the best thing ever made. It's very good, sure, but it's not the holy grail of software you make it out to be. There are plenty of programs (not necessarily level editors) available now that are just as good. Yes, it took Fu a long time, but this is mainly because: 1) He had little prior experience in the field and wrote messy code (evidenced by a screenshot on his website showing that all LM's code is in one huge file). 2) He had to discover everything about the game himself. We already have plenty of information to go by, plus far better tools. 3) Laziness and/or business. One version coming out a year after the previous one doesn't mean that version took a year's worth of work. Originally posted by HyperHacker Why wouldn't an open-source editor sporting the same features and more be equally or more popular. Because it doesn't exist. Obviously I meant if one was made, hence, "why wouldn't it be" as opposed to "why isn't it".
Sukasa Posts: 1501/2068	Well, you need a realist stifu... doesn't mean we can't still prove him wrong on this one though
Stifu Posts: 429/647	Whether this new SMW editor project fails or not, that pessimism is uncalled for, Glyph. If everyone had that kind of mindset, Genecyst might still be the best Mega Drive emulator, for example... Probably not the most fitting one. :p Just let them try their best. FuSoYa is human, his work can be surpassed.
Glyphodon Posts: 341/536	Originally posted by Disruptive Idiot Yes, yes, but some things, like overhauling how the game handles sprite graphics for this case, simply can't be compatible with Lunar Magic That's not true at all. Does LM even mess with the way SMW handles sprites? Even if it does, I'm sure there's working around that. Thinking a new LM is needed to support a nonexistant, theoretical sprite engine is beyond unreasonable. Originally posted by HyperHacker Really? You've read everybody's mind and none of them think they could/want to make a new editor? That's amazing. But what makes Super Mario World so different than other games, and FuSoYa so different than other people, that while anyone with decent programming skills can make an editor for, say, Super Mario Bros 3, only he can make one for SMW? If you have an editor as good as Lunar Magic or someone who can build editors as well as FuSoYa hidden away somewhere, by all means, share with the class. Sure, there are those who could whip something up, but just because an editor is open-source does not make it worthy of replacing Lunar Magic. Originally posted by HyperHacker Why wouldn't an open-source editor sporting the same features and more be equally or more popular. Because it doesn't exist. Equalling Lunar Magic's features is a gargantuan, thankless task because whatever falls into that category has been done before and done well. That's why I don't believe it's going to be done any time in the near future. Originally posted by Smallhacker I'm very interested in making a new level editor for SMW. Smally, bless your little status bar editor making heart, but you're no FuSoYa. Don't pull a SMW Development Environment and code a utility just to add a lackluster palette feature or some such and then just give up. Originally posted by Sukasa + I know other attempts at this have failed, but all we need to do is not giv eup this time. Just keep going, and there shouldn't be a problem. Admirable solution, but it's an inevitable conclusion.
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Acmlm's Board - I3 Archive - SMW Hacking - ASM hack idea. (Sprite graphics related)

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