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| sandrocklq Posts: 117/210 |
I wouldn't be opposed to them checking everyone but its a pipe dream due to the inefficency of the TSA. I did see the one device on the news that exposes the whole body. Wonder how safe it is and if it would detect things that you swallowed. | ||||||||
| Schweiz oder etwas Posts: 1593/2046 |
What really blows about that statement is that I entered this thread after reading the entire thing just to say that searching everyone would be more efficient and would let far less crime sift through the searches than racial profiling, and ||bass beat me to it, but he cast it in a completely different light than I did.
I fail to see what would be so astronomically expensive about finding a method to standardize searches for everyone's equipment and person: We have metal detectors, we have baggage checking for everyone, we have carryon scanning. We checked everyone just after the 9/11 attacks, why not just keep up the good work? If anything, the government could cover the costs in the name of airline security; if they're so concerned about it, why not do something about it? | ||||||||
| ||bass Posts: 416/594 |
One solution to profiling is simple: Search everyone. Do a full and complete search of absoloutly everyone. If EVERYONE is suspected, noone will feel singled out.
Note: For those of you unaquainted with my style of making outlandish suggestions, don't take this post too seriously. I'm well aware that the costs of fully searching everyone would be astronomical and would put the whole airline industry out of buisness. | ||||||||
| Jomb Posts: 333/448 |
"No, it's the fact that it's a "Lock them away for two years, and now they'll be better" policy. Either we need harsher punishments for like, violence and such, or something."
What we need is less lynch-mob mentality towards people who commit a crime, and more trying to help people to overcome whatever problems caused them to commit the crime in the 1st place. Once we lock someone up for years in a monster factory with no honest attempt at rehabilitation, how is it surprising that the man returns to us as a monster? Rehabiliation wont work on every single criminal, but it does work alot better than what we do right now. We as a society are extremely focused on the victim, and helping the victim, and thats great, but the offender probably needs help to. Helping the offender to become a decent person prevents future victims. Locking him away for 2 years (or however long) and treating him like sub-human garbage the whole time makes future victims more likely. " I wouldn't mind my bags being searched if it made everyone else on the plane feel safer. Like if you're innocent.. it shouldn't really be a problem." It would bother me greatly if i was being singled out for some bullshit (like searching my bags), just because of my race. Over time it could fuel a persecution complex amongst the race which is being singled out. Once you feel like nobody trusts you and you are under constant suspicion for things which are out of your control, that can be used as justification for committing crimes. You might figure "fuck it, this is what they all expect from me anyway...". | ||||||||
| emcee Posts: 521/867 |
Originally posted by sandrocklq Whether that's true or not doesn't really prove that racial profiling is the reason, I'm sure Israel uses various security measures to prevent terrorist from hijacking or blowing up planes. | ||||||||
| sandrocklq Posts: 107/210 |
I'm having a hard time coming up with a decent source for why profiling works for Israel and how they go about doing it. If memory serves, I believe that no airliner going out of Israel has ever been highjacked, but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. | ||||||||
| Sin Dogan Posts: 702/861 |
Originally posted by Rom Manic It would be strengthened in the sense that people would not be excluded for being different but instead have their cultures respected while still being treated on a familiar level. | ||||||||
| Ziff Posts: 1162/1800 |
Al Qaeda has been supplanted by the individual, unaffiliated cell. | ||||||||
| Rom Manic Posts: 272/557 |
We really have no reason that a Canadian Muslim has any reason to attack the country it lives in. However, the propaganda of Al Quaeda can spread very quickly and easily in the more damaged parts of the world, and to those that are hopeless that seek hope.
All in all, Racial Profiling wouldn't happen if we saw humans as humans. But what would that do to our diversity? | ||||||||
| Sin Dogan Posts: 701/861 |
Yes but it's not always the question of "Is racial profiling ethical?" as much as "Is it efficient?". As I mentioned, with international threats, like at airports, it's not efficient because:
a.)Many times it can be difficult to determine someone's race just by looking at them, which is what happens. And ignorance to outside cultures doesn't help in determining these things. b.)There have been attackers from various races and ethnicities. | ||||||||
| Snow Tomato Posts: 738/798 |
It's not the racial profiling of blacks. The majority of black americans are poor, they live in poor neighborhoods.. and can't afford good attournies to defend them. That's why a majority of people in jail are black. Black crime and white crime is committed at basically the same level within each group.. but it's unfortunate that money makes the world go round.
Racial profiling is obviously going to occur. I don't think you can help it. I don't think it's fair to the people who it's unfairly used against.. but at airports or other places where precaustions need to be taken.. I say it's okay. I wouldn't mind my bags being searched if it made everyone else on the plane feel safer. Like if you're innocent.. it shouldn't really be a problem. Yes.. it's annoying but.. what are you gonna do? They just wanna search you. But in no way should they harass you because of your race. There should be no effort to go out of their way unless there is reasonable suspicion surrounding you. | ||||||||
| Sin Dogan Posts: 697/861 |
Originally posted by sandrocklq How is that possible? Most Israelis look pretty Arabic. It must be more of just looking at their faces and stuff. Racial profiling is stupid. Considering that terrorists have been from many different countries, racial and ethnic groups, it's pretty difficult to confine it to one group. If one were to look at the Radical 'Islamic' terrorist group plots, one would see that there have been several people who are Black, Asian(South, East, whatever), White, and Hispanic, to name a few. This is on a slightly different topic, but I remember last year hearing of a flight coming from Cuba that crashed and like everyone knew who was behind it and could've locked away the culprit but the US didn't want to mess with any Cuban related issues. Fuckin stupid. | ||||||||
| sandrocklq Posts: 99/210 |
There's also a problem with this mandatory sentencing range. It forces judges to apply a sentence that may be too harsh or too light based on the guidelines for that crime. I believe a good example of this was a first timeoffender who got life in prision for drug possession. He only got life for the quantity of drugs, which was a lot. Do we really need to lock someone up for life for drug possession? I'm not sure what his race was though. | ||||||||
| Shadic Posts: 306/528 |
Originally posted by Jomb No, it's the fact that it's a "Lock them away for two years, and now they'll be better" policy. Either we need harsher punishments for like, violence and such, or something. | ||||||||
| Arwon Posts: 361/631 |
Bass: Yeah, I wasn't assuming those numbers were for black Americans, I just wanted a concrete example to refer to instead of speaking entirely in abstractions. Poor wording on my part. | ||||||||
| Jomb Posts: 331/448 |
Go look in a prison sometime, at least 60% of the people in there are black. Considering they make up about 10% of the population.... So it becomes a case of which came first, the high crime rate amongst blacks, or the racial profiling of blacks? Prisons in general are getting ridiculously over-crowded in the US, we are talking about millions and millions of people, we lock up more people than the rest of the world combined, including China.
So you can only reach one of 2 conclusions, either the USA is a country over-whelmingly full of dangerous criminals, more so than all the rest of the world, or we have a broken justice system and a "lock em' and throw away the key" mentality. | ||||||||
| ||bass Posts: 399/594 |
I doub't that's deliberate. Most crimes are committed near the home. The fact that people commit crimes on others of their own race is because most of the time all the people of | sandrocklq |
Posts: 90/210 One thing about the profiling of blacks. The majority of the crimes they commit are against other black people, especially if you consider only violent crime such as rape, murder, and assualt. | ||bass |
Posts: 393/594 I don't think those are the numbers for black Americans. While they are about 10% of the population, I seriously doubt they commit an entire 50% of the crime. I don't actually have the statistics in front of me but I find it seriously unlikley that they commit 20 crimes for every one committed by all the other races combined (required by the 10/50 statistic). That seems way over the top. Those numbers were really just pulled out of my ass for the purpose of my example.
| Now, on to specifics: Actually... I'm not going to argue your numbered points (the "Firstly....", "Secondly...." and "Third...." paragraphs). Mostly because they make sence and are probably right. Seriously though, I made those percentage numbers up to make the example very clear-cut. Also, I know it's not a thread about general profiling, but you made the point that it was always morally incorrect and I just felt like giving a counter point. Don't get used to hearing this very often because I almost always am right about everything but I take back my previous post. I don't care so much about the part about losing faith in the system, but your arguement about how profiling can further distort the crime statistics, thus becoming a self-sustaining incorrect system in itself is pretty convincing and probably right. I hadn't thought of the cyclical effect before. In short: I take back my previous post because I made a mistake. Just don't get comfortable because it's a rare event. Arwon |
Posts: 360/631 So we should racially profile young men?
| Anyways Bass, we're talking about profiling for fighting terorrism here, so those sorts of big proportions don't apply. Even in a case such as crime (and I'm gonna assume that despite the abstractions we're arguing in terms of black Americans here since they're the archetypical example), focussing on that 10% of that populace disproportionately, has a couple of ramifications which I think can undermine the effectiveness of policing completely. Policing, afterall, is not a military exercise of force against hostile threats, it's supposed to be a cooperative, consensusal exercise. Policing relies, at least partly, on the willingness of the community to be policed. And I think such things as racial profiling massively undermines that. Firstly, to use your hypotheticals, it takes the heat off the people committing the other 50% of the crime, which can only have a deleterious effect on law enforcement overall. A prime example would be in American drug laws where despite the fact that drug use is pretty even across all ethnic groups, the largest group of prisoners for drug offences are, by a wide margin, young blacks. Whites are far less likely to either get caught or jailed for drug use (now for me the solution is to STOP JAILING PEOPLE FOR DRUG USE but that's a whole other argument). Secondly it creates an over-policing bias, where because there's more cops on certain beats, a higher proportion of people get caught for, often, less severe things (the "Driving while black" phenomenon?). It must be noted that "amount of crime committed" is at least partly a function of how much gets prosecuted... in fact most crime statistics in most places are based on prosecution numbers (that's certainly how the ABS does it), so crime statistics and ethnic profiling can be a kind of a reinforcing cycle to some extent. One brilliant illustration of the way crime statistics are affected by reporting and prosecution levels is the fact that assault rates in Australia have been skyrocketing for 25 years and making it seem like ALL crime is going up, when a truer explaination would be that assaults get reported and prosecuted more nowadays because the culture is changing. Anyways, over-policing can even lead to a kind of self-perpetuating cycle where the target group ends up with more and more people in prison which breeds more hard-core criminals and drug-addicts, who commit more crme and crate a greater perception of criminality, which leads to more police focus, and so forth. Third, as kind of a flow-on from these first two things--letting other slip by, and overpolicing--it will usually create perceptions of racism and persecution which render overall policing less effective since a sizable chunk of the population sees you as racist and unfair at best, and downright ineffective and corrupt at worst. This is a long thread. Click here to view it. | | |
