 |
| Register | Login | |||||
 |
Main
| Memberlist
| Active users
| Calendar
| Chat
| Online users Ranks | FAQ | ACS | Stats | Color Chart | Search | Photo album |
|
| | ||
|
| Register | Login | |||||
|
Main
| Memberlist
| Active users
| Calendar
| Chat
| Online users Ranks | FAQ | ACS | Stats | Color Chart | Search | Photo album |
|
| | ||
| 0 users currently in World Affairs/Debate. |
| User | Post |
| Deleted User Posts: 6/-7750 |
Israel is a bully, instead of trying to make peace with Palestine and make a deal, they bomb schools? Neitzluber thinks Israel's arrogance derives from too much US support. Time has come to cut off the umbilical cord... |
| Arwon Posts: 282/631 |
The radical factions opposed to peace thing is kinda, you know, how a peace process works, though. They don't succeed until the moderates and pragmatists are strong and confident and supported enough that the process can absorb and move past the actions of the extremists, recalcitrants, hardliners and such.
See also: the Real IRA, Yigal Amir This peace process is like any other, albeit particularly complicated... when it succes, is going to succeed in spite of the words and actions of Israeli and Palestinian hardliners, not merely in the absence of these things. There'll never be a time when peace negotiations can occur completely free of ongoing terrorism and opporession and bad blood. This is fantasy, because if they did, there'd be peace already. The trick, though, is that at various times, support for extreme and militant positions versus moderate ones wax and wane. Circumstances fluctuate over time (in terms of geopolitical climate, electoral politics, the personalities involved, public opinion, and so forth), and it's probably going to be a while before there's another promising window of opportunity, for a peace process to work like the early 90s or the last days of Ariel Sharon's political career. It's very frustrating. |
| Crashman Posts: 69/80 |
and they were so GOd damn close to what looked like a decent peace too man. I felt bad, when i heard that the dude got kidnapped. it was like some movie plot, where a small radical faction plans to destabalize the peace process for nefarious ends.....when probably it was just some version of midle east red-necks wanting to lynch someone and it got out of control.......way out of control..... |
| beneficii Posts: 182/310 |
spiroth10,
If you're to that point, terrorizing the populace is simply engaging in terrorism yourself; perhaps you should rethink your whole strategy at that point. If anything, a forced expulsion from the West Bank and the Gaza Strip of the Palestinians seems more humane than this. |
| spiroth10 Posts: 26/145 |
edit: sorry for driving this so off-topic...
true, but how do we know who DID? it is safe to assume a majority of their population did indeed vote for hamas as they won the election. My sorrow goes out to the innocents, and sometimes I wish there was some way to end violence in general. but there was simply no way for them to tell terrorist from citizen -- its the same problem we had in the US while invading Iraq -- you cannot lead a selective war when it comes to terror. your enemy wears no fatigues... he can be anyone, even the old man at the corner hotel might be plotting to slit a journalists throat in their sleep. like I said -- these are madmen who obey no rules. they will stab your back, lie, cheat... they will preten to be innocent until they have you in a vulnerable position. humanism make such a fight ineffective, as citizens will live but so will the opponent. it's like playing a game of chess with a king disguised as a pawn. you have to take them all to get checkmate. the isreali's seem to understand htis concept, and thats why I back them. Its brutal, its sad, and its borderline evil in itself, but its true. And you also must realise that Hamas and others have done the same and worse to them. Bombing school buses and the like seems a bit worse to me. |
| beneficii Posts: 180/310 |
spiroth10,
And the citizens who didn't vote for Hamas? They should suffer too right? What about the ones just wanting to mind their own business and do productive work (like run a business) and wish those 2 governments that keep causing all that destruction would just go away? I guess they must suffer too, according to your logic. I personally support neither government, as both are full of power-hungry monsters who will stop at nothing to get their way. |
| spiroth10 Posts: 24/145 |
Originally posted by ziffhasnoaim/password yes, terrorism is definitely wrong. but the rules all change when your fighting against terrorists. in a normal battle, citizens shouldnt be touched, but the supporters of Hamas (clearly a terrorist syndicate) ARE citizens. and thus, they are terrorists by association. they ELECTED hamas. like I said, you can only fight fire with fire -- isreal seems to understand that. I know my beliefs are... quite alternative to say the least... they are effective. I personally think evil is a belief itself, and a belief cannot be "forced out" of anyone. if you want to eradicate a belief (like terrorism) then it is necessary to eliminate those who believe in it. in a large part, this is why Rome persecuted christians. At the time, they believed that such a peace-loving god (rather than the other religions of the time) would decrease military moral. which DID happen anyway, and along with the invasions afterward, destroyed the western roman empire... which leads me to the fact that the jews did NOT kill jesus, one of them told on him, and the Roman Empire did, but thats another story, for another time. in short -- I dont agree with the thing about chrisitians -- it just shows my reasoning on this matter. I dont think terrorism is a strong belief like christianity though, and I think it can be defeated. For even Muhammad spoke of peace, and not war, and the true muslims should NOT be supporting terrorism. only psycopathic extremists do that. if you would like me to explain myself more just ask... edit: you will find me quite well-educated on the history of this topic too... this whole war began because the jews had to flee their home, A.K.A. Diaspora. they ended up in egypt while looking for a new home, and became slaves. when they were finally free, they attempted to make it back home, and lo and behold, the arabs had settled there. personally, I think they shouldve left and found a new home, they LEFT, and it was clearly not palestine's fault. but I also think that now this is irrelevant. its a plot of land, and I dont really think its worth war, on either side. sure, I know religion is involved, but quite frankly, I dont care. I support their decision to attack civilians because it is effective. humanism DOES NOT always save lives -- sometimes it prolongs war, and causes more deaths. |
| Wurl Posts: 821/842 |
Originally posted by Vyper For one, Palestine has continually had to fight to keep their homeland. The Ottoman Turks ruled Palestine, the English colonized Palestine and now there's Israel. I have no problem with the "Jewish state" existing, but I do have a problem when they use their military to reduce Palestine to a third world nation while right nearby the Israeli settlements (many of which are illegal under international law) have running water, swimming pools, paved roads and so on. Also the fact that Palestinians have to go through military check points to travel within their own country, even the undisputed parts. The frustration from this inspires many to resort to "terrorist" tactics, which of course leads Israel to using more military force. Also, the fact that Israel continually attacks civilian targets when many citizens do not participate in "terrorist" activities. Originally posted by Vyper As stated before, the Israeli army continually attacks civilian targets, which I consider to be a terrorist action. |
| ziffhasnoaim/password Posts: 136/292 |
Originally posted by Jomb I'm really hoping that he doesn't believe that...but given his "beliefs" speel it seems that this is indeed what he believes. |
| Jomb Posts: 279/448 |
spiroth10 - Haha good one... you were joking right? |
| ziffhasnoaim/password Posts: 135/292 |
Question: spiroth
Is terrorism wrong? |
| spiroth10 Posts: 20/145 |
GO ISREAL!!!!
they've got the balls to do what the US couldnt. I dont think they were harsh enough. I wouldve hit harder and started a war over it. I think they should have a manhunt for the prime minister and kill him on live TV. I say fight terror with terror! show them they cant mess with you, just like the bullies at elementary school. I, personally, am totally against the UN. Im all for bayonets in war. its war. it means pain, death, and suffering. obeying UN rules of engagement make countries weaker. thats why terror has the upper-hand. if they get the bomb they WILL use it. They have nobody telling them no (that they listen to). as long as humanism is enforced, nothing can be done. so I say go isreal. hit them where it hurts. I wish the US was like that. |
| ziffhasnoaim/password Posts: 131/292 |
If you have read some pro-Palestinian statements that are as radical as Vyper's you'd notice that it almost always contains a little piece of "American" something, "imperialism/colonialism", or "Zionism". Something along those lines. Interestingly I've been finding that this phenomenon isn't a uniquely left-wing issue anymore. I find that these pieces of ideology are growing in various conservative circles the world round. Etiquette generally has you just nodding your head in agreement when someone politely addresses your concerns and answers your questions about any sort of message. A polite clarification is a polite clarification.
The Zionist movement in the 30s and 40s actually didn't always advocate a return philosophy. Many of them simply wanted to be recognized as humans. I find it somewhat odd that some Zionists these days deviate so far from what the original philosophy is. I don't blame them for their deviation, but I do blame the extremists for taking the word of G-D and using it as a hammer to act a play of sophistry and let hatred fly upon many innocent Palestinians. The Arabs were betrayed constantly during the formation of Israel. They became angry and none of their issues were addressed by the international community. What happens when nothing happens when you ask? You try to do something yourself. Sadly, the Arabic countries opted to become militaristic and attack European invaders (really, that's one of the anti-colonialist arguments). The Palestinians aren't fighting for Islam. Some of the groups are. They're fighting for their homeland. They're fighting for freedom from what they see as undue oppression. And cursory research will show you that the Gaza strip right now is a third-world country. There is no doubt about this. Placing the violence of many of these people with the thread of Islam is a typical new form of argument. A bizarre new fear-mongering tactic. I'm not saying that this is intentional, but so much of the world is playing this new game of Islamophobia. Not entirely unjustified, but definitely ignorant of the causes. The radical religious aspect of this really only started coming in in the past decade with the rise of militant Islam and its subsequent spread. However, you don't need a suicide bomb to lob a $300'000 dollar missile from a Cobra helicopter or have a Merkava fire a 120 MM round into a school. |
| Silvershield Posts: 284/587 |
Originally posted by ziffhasnoaim/passwordYour post lacks any sense of Devil's advocacy whatsoever. You wrote what you did in a style that unabashedly suggests your own personal adherence, rather than a style that would indicate the the point you've made is one that is supposed to be self-evidently false. Don't blame me for not "getting" a message that is not exactly obvious. Originally posted by ziffhasnoaim/passwordAll I'm saying is that they flagrantly deny their own self-proclaimed "religion of peace" by twisting it into the justification with which they declare violent and suicidal war on a neighbor who may (would?) have originally been happy to live and let live. The Israelis are not blameless - hell, I don't even have a personal stance on this issue that would favor one side over the other - but I couldn't stand without calling you on what you said earlier. Originally posted by ArwonSo the Israelis are known for their suicide bombers? |
| Arwon Posts: 279/631 |
Originally posted by Silvershield The best thing is it took me several reads to figure out which side was which. Game set. |
| ziffhasnoaim/password Posts: 128/292 |
*yawn*
Just taking what he said and turning it around. I'm not putting any stake in those words. Nor do they hold any inherent meaning. Just pointing out how stupid an extreme argument on either side seems. The one I forwarded makes the Palestinians seem like bloody heroes. Which, of course, most of the violent fighters *aren't*. That said, Vyper just kind of shoots holes all over any case for Israel that could be made - general ignorance and lacking any semblence of reason. I'm hoping that you understand that both of those arguments are ridiculously faulty. As for the point "irrational oppressor"? What? Are you saying that the Palestinians are a) irrational when their homeland has been taken from them and are being forced into a 3rd world state? or b) are managing to suppress, repress, and oppress the far more powerful Israeli state and Jewish culture in the region in general? |
| Silvershield Posts: 283/587 |
Originally posted by ziffhasnoaim/passwordCombating an irrational oppressor is cowardly, yet blowing yourself up and taking a group of school children with you is "fighting for your homeland." Ok, Ziff. Originally posted by ziffhasnoaim/passwordNice little jab. |
| ziffhasnoaim/password Posts: 127/292 |
It takes a lot more balls tof ight to have your homeland back than to fly an F-15 and bomb a power station knocking out the power to millions of innocent people. Or you know, firing a rocket at a bunch of innocent beach goers.
Of course, I don't put it above an American like you to sympathize with spineless tactics. |
| Vyper Posts: 322/575 |
How can the Palestine be the victim? You do realize that they willingly host (not to mention that many of them are) terrorists, including Osama Bin Laden, right? And they agree with Iran that Isreal shouldn't even be aknowledged as existing (unofficially).
At least the Israelies arn't cowardly terrorists. Fuck terrorists. I hope Isreal blows them off the face of the planet. Hell, I say nuke Iran while they're at it. Take Mahmoud's threats and shove them up right up his ass... sideways. |
| Arwon Posts: 276/631 |
I am surprised no-one's thought of this kidnapping tactic before. Israel relies very heavily on its conscription. To directly target that is to threaten all Israelis and potentially undermine the system by making parents less willing to let their children go be soldiers. It's a smart tactic, except for the bit about massive reprisals, since the Israeli government has to be seen to be doing ALL that it can to rescue kidnapped soldiers. |
| This is a long thread. Click here to view it. | |
