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| User | Post |
| Rom Manic Posts: 104/557 |
All this talk of Judas betraying Jesus because Jesus told him to do so is a little dumb. Jesus didn't have to tell Judas anything. God created our world so that he knew how everything could turn out, and he gave us the free will to do as we please to prove that.
To be honest, I think when Eve ate the apple, God gave up on humanity, but his son believed that we should be saved. And I think God abandoned him then, because why else would he say "God, why hast thou forsaken me?" Everything is planned out already. But that doesn't mean you can't control your destiny, like Young Guru said.. God made it that way so we could be happy. But if anyone remembers some 4th dimension theory, it could be possible that if you knew the state the universe was currently in, what everything was doing at once, then you could predict what could happen anytime after that. And who better to know this kind of thing than a being called God? No Jesus wasn't perfect, and the Da Vinci code might have a point. I've never read any of the books, but I've heard enough to come to my own conclusion. In many of my novels focusing on religion, it is mentioned many times that Da Vinci was part of a few Free Masonry clans in his lifetime. It is then VERY possible for him to find out from ancient texts that Jesus was, in fact, sleeping with Mary Magdalene, and which is why she is portrayed in his Last Supper painting. |
| Young Guru Posts: 84/279 |
Jesus dieing on the cross wasn't in God's plan for him, but it was an inevitability of the plan of Jesus' life. The purpose of Jesus becoming human was to teach the good word about what is expected of all people. He was to teach that loving your fellow man is the most important thing that you can do in life. Now, because his teachings would be so radically different and opposed to the traditional teachings, it was obvious to see that he would be executed for his actions because of the mass of people that he would offend by upturning their entire religion. If he was not proclaiming this doctrine so strongly he wouldn't have been crucified, but then, his message wouldn't have been heard and his time on earth would be a waste.
And for jesus being perfect, he is perfect in the aspect of sin, he is free of it. Questioning God and his plan is not a sin, it is actually a sign of someone who is actively participating in their faith by trying to seek a greater understanding of their beliefs. When Jesus said "My God, why have you forsaken me" or "Take this cup away" in reference to him being crucified it was his human nature of fear that brought him to it and a desire to completely understand why he was going through what he was going through. Upturning the table in the temple could be considered a sin, but in no way a grave sin, the same as someone stopping a person from selling drugs by destroying that persons drugs is in no one committing a grave sin. As for free will v. predistination, I see it as something like this. God has given us all free will and we have the ability to do what it is that we desire, but in being omniscient God is able to understand what our desires are and therefore know what we will choose to do and thus be able to understand the what, where, when, why and how of every event. It's like with anything, if you comprehend it fully, you can predict everything that will result from it, it's just that we as human beings are nowhere near capable of understanding free will and other people's motives and desires so we are not able to predict what will happen in the future. |
| Snow Tomato Posts: 636/798 |
Originally posted by Plus Sign AbominationOriginally posted by Snow Tomato Slightly inflated, yes. But my point is that crucifixion was a normal means of punishment under the Roman Empire. |
| Peardian Posts: 642/1757 |
I'm watching a special on it right now.  (History Channel) I'm interested in what it has to say... |
| Ziff Posts: 930/1800 |
Originally posted by Snow Tomato I think those numbers are slightly inflated. |
| Snow Tomato Posts: 633/798 |
Theatrics? I doubt it... thousands and thousands of people were crucified every single day under the roman empire. It wasn't theatrical... it was probably played out by the time jesus died. It was the work of his diciples and his message... you can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.
And jesus was not perfect. Just like any man, he questioned gods plan for him. He overturned a table in the temple in anger and frustration, couldn't control his temper. When he was younger he disobeyed his mother and father by running off to the temple for a couple of days to learn about god. Stainless? No. I never thought about the Judas thing... actually. He's now my favorite character in the bible.. because I can't determine if it was free will... or part of gods devine plan. That's crazy. |
| 1224 Posts: 7/7 |
Jesus died on teh cross for theatrics, God can do anything right? Right! so he could save everyones soul with out the whole cross thing right? Right! So then the only reason he died on teh cross was for pure theatrics, and because he was bound by teh fate of the prophesies. |
| Ziff Posts: 923/1800 |
God exists outside of time and space. The concept of freewill as we know it CAN account for the concept of providence. At least according to Eriugena. |
| Schweiz oder etwas Posts: 1033/2046 |
Originally posted by Skydude So what you're saying here is that the nature of the divine plan is such that our own free will dictates what happens in it next? But since the prospect of free will is nigh-infinite, the divine plan has an infinite amount of outcomes, meaning it can't possibly be a very well-planned plan if it doesn't even have a set goal (since this goal and its methods are modulated by the decisions of its subjects). On the other hand, this might also mean that the divine plan for us all isn't so much a plan, but God saying "Oh, they did this, I better fix a few things so that my plan will still work". Or that could be God's plan. You know, to change things based on what the human will dictates. |
| Doppelganger Posts: 186/300 |
Originally posted by Skyon Hang on there, no one here is justtifing their vanities by saying he's not an absolutely perfect being, who, like the bible says, gave up his life for the people, etc etc. No one is perfect, not by a longshot. We're all only human. Man, even God probably isn't perfect, if hes the one who did all this. There's MANY ways to look at this recent "Gospel of Judas". I, for one, think that in every story (Take this as you will) there has to be a traitor or comparably 'bad dude'. This Judas thing sprung as such, betraying Jesus. |
| windwaker Posts: 91/235 |
Originally posted by Skyon What are you freaking talking about? I'm not "justifying my vanities". Saying Jesus wasn't perfect isn't a lie. I've spoken to many pastors that say he wasn't perfect. Are they lying? Are they "justifying certain vanities"? Now, I have to ask you something. Was Mark perfect? Was Matthew perfect? Was John perfect? Was Luke perfect? Originally posted by Skyon what edit: also, saying he was stainless isn't a metaphor. Look it up, it's in the definition. |
| Deleted User Posts: 348/-7750 |
Originally posted by windwakerOriginally posted by Grey Whoa! Whoa ! Whoa! Easy there! Jesus WAS perfect, but so many people try to justify their vanities by lying and saying that Jesus wasn't perfect. He was our was to redemption, and that was only IF he was infact stainless (Metaphor), and he was. |
| Squash Monster Posts: 189/296 |
I always assumed that Jesus could have saved everyone without having to die, and the way things worked out was just one possibility out of many. It fits with how I reconcile God's omniscience with our free-will -- true omniscience entails knowing what will happen no matter what each individual person does, so each individual person can have free will because they have no effect on an overall plan conceived by an omniscient being. Even though God knows exactly what you will do, it does not matter because everything would work just the same if God did not. In the case of Jesus, if we viewed everything from the prespective of an observer who did not know how those events would unfold, it would make more sense for Jesus to not be betrayed, so he could spread the message -- it seems that whole rebirth miracle is more proof that God's plan will work no matter the actions of individuals. |
| Skydude Posts: 1889/2607 |
Well, I think a lot of it comes down to the nature of the divine plan. Yes, Jesus needed to die in order for the resurrection to take place. I think what it comes down to here is the issue of omniscience and free will.
Judas did not need to betray Jesus. He made the choice to do so. That is why he's a reviled traitor. God's plan did not rely on that happening to succeed. Rather, the plan was built with the knowledge that this would happen. There's an argument about whether it's really free will if it's known in advance what the choice will be, and hard to get your mind around that, but still. I don't really know how to explain it better than that. |
| Ailure Posts: 1275/2602 |
Originally posted by ArwonYeah, he was, but at least he portrayed hell in the scary way. 
Sometimes I just want to go back in time and meet this Jesus, and maybe clear some of thoose theological problems/theories. Well, Jesus did come to life a few days after his death right, just to disappear? If his death was totally unfit for gods plans, then god might have let jesus live a few years more on earth. Ironic that the same empire who killed Jesus, was also one of the first nations to become christian later. :/ |
| 1224 Posts: 5/7 |
Well, I personally have always taken a sympathetic veiw of Lucifer and Judas, beacuase they HAD to betray, if they didnt, then the universe would fall apart. The new findings in the bible support my beleifs. |
| emcee Posts: 369/867 |
Except he didn't betray Jesus to fulfill the prophecy of Isiah, he did it as an attempt to force Jesus's hand against the Romans. |
| Arwon Posts: 167/631 |
Originally posted by DracoonOriginally posted by Grey Because Dante was a sick motherfucker? |
| Schweiz oder etwas Posts: 1028/2046 |
Originally posted by DracoonOriginally posted by Grey (Shhh.... People believe in Dante as much as they do in the bible, man) As for my statement about Jesus' plan to die, I meant that God's plan for Jesus was for him to die. Like, the whole idea of free will versus divine plan gets to me. Really, anything else I said was just to spark some debate. EDIT: I think you'll find my initial post to be changed to better reflect my feelings on the situation. |
| Sinfjotle Posts: 1075/1697 |
Originally posted by Grey The Inferno is not part of the bible for a reason man. |
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