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Acmlm's Board - I3 Archive - World Affairs/Debate - Survival of the Fittest and the Application Thereof.
  
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Zem
Posts: 1070/1097		 I haven't followed the whole thread, so maybe someone said this already, but we haven't "gotten past" or "overcome" the notion of survival of the fittest.

People who are most likely to reproduce (and are able to have their offspring survive to do the same) will pass on their genes.

There it is, in its simplest form.

The way society functions now, this is probably not "the strongest" or even "the smartest," although the strongest and the smartest would of course gain some advantages. But some people will be better than others at successfully cultivating their genes, and that will cause (is causing) the gene pool to trend towards those attributes.

I've read a couple of things stating "Scientists think people may evolve to have only four toes!" This is stupid. I think the slight energy gain from having two fewer toes would be far outweighed by a somewhat smaller chance to reproduce. That's the kind of misinformation that makes people think humans have "surpassed" evolution (not that anyone suggested that here).
Jomb
Posts: 131/448		 Plus SIgn - I & I Survived

I have nothing more to say on this topic anyway, I already made my point.
mattp
Posts: 70/174		 I won't acknowledge jomb anymore.

Tomato- The Industrial period in American history had the baron's of industry using government power to illegalize labor unions. It was not laissez faire capitalism, the government was very much involved.
Ziff
Posts: 765/1800		 Mattp/Jomb.

Could you guys treat each other a little bit better and not resort to hurling insults? This part of the board is supposed to be Rasta. Jah love man?
geeogree
Posts: 112/207		 [wonders when the flame will be put out on that last post]
Jomb
Posts: 129/448		 Mattp- YOU think I'm incapable of intelligent thought? *L* Coming from you i'll take that as a compliment
Snow Tomato
Posts: 570/798		 Another thing to consider is that every single person here is considered labor. I'm going to assume that none of us are amazingly wealthy, or part of the elite. So why would you want a completely uncontrolled economy when it wouldn't benefit you at all?

The laws are in place to protect the average workers in america. Look at the Industrial Period in America and tell me that things weren't getting completely out of hand. If the laws that restricted the economy were to completely dissapear, and we had true laissez-faire economics... we'd go right back to that.

Point? It's not a good thing.. and it's only benefitting the rich... definatly not you. We need restrictions on our economy... and if it's leaning more towards socialism... good for you. American workers have won over their bosses. It's just about balancing the wealth in a way that benefits you more. So if I were you I'd be celebrating over mixed economies leaning more towards socialism... as it does, in fact.. benefit the majority of people... and you.
mattp
Posts: 68/174		 Jomb- you are clearly incapable of intelligent thought. You might as well stop now. What does the war in Iraq have to do with anything?

Sir Plus Sign- Socialism is itself a compromise between capitalism and communism.

Of course it is naive to beleive the market will fix everything, and there does need to be government restriction. Where we disagree is the degree of restriction. I think that the government only needs to protects the rights of its citizens ( IE laissez-faire economy.. capitalism.. freedom, liberty, all that good stuff ).
1106
Posts: 36/89
Originally posted by Plus Sign Abomination
Originally posted by mattp
Sir Plus Sign-- Proof that capitalism, even when its being dragged down by a socialist government, is viable.


Or that perhaps that the best system is a healthy medium between ideologies and a practical middle path.

Believing that the market will fix everything is as naive as believing that absolute planned economies will fix everything.

Woah, woah. Hold on. I'm not trying to imply that the free market is the only way to go. My point is that the current governments of the world (for the most part) are leaning to the socialist side and it's to their detriment. Plus, I was debating the dangers of going all socialist, rather than analyzing both and picking one.
Ziff
Posts: 763/1800
Originally posted by mattp
Sir Plus Sign-- Proof that capitalism, even when its being dragged down by a socialist government, is viable.


Or that perhaps that the best system is a healthy medium between ideologies and a practical middle path.

Believing that the market will fix everything is as naive as believing that absolute planned economies will fix everything.
Jomb
Posts: 128/448		 mattp - i'll always be against letting people starve or freeze to death, when just a fraction of the money wasted over in Iraq could easily take care of them. There are easily that many people stashed away in various mental facilities and care homes across the country.

CESum - but it does, it has everything to do with the matter at hand, because what you are suggesting is stopping anything that has to do with socialism, which includes aid to handi-capped people. You want to believe that total and complete capitalism is a utopia with no consequences, while i'm saying that its only a utopia for the rich and fortunate, while it would be abject hell for at leats hundreds of thousands of people. No amount of pep talking is going to make someone with severe autism suddenly get up and start working a regualr job and support themselves, hard work can only go so far. Good for you if you overcame something, but some illnesses and handi-caps simply cant be overcome. Its a sad fact of life. You can flap your arms all day, but no matter how much you believe you're going to take off, and no matter how hard you do, it aint gonna happen. I'm not here to win friends or influence people.
1106
Posts: 24/89
Originally posted by Jomb
Lots of people dont have family who care about them, or have family that would be too poor to support them.
Actually more people fit this than you think, hundreds of thousands. This may be small in comparison to the 300 million+ people in the US, but still, you're talking about killing off hundreds of thousands of innocent people for the crime of being handi-capped and poor.
Again, logical fallacy. This has absolutely nothing to do with the matter at hand. It's only purpose is to draw sympathy. You should stop acting as if choosing capitalism is the same as committing genocide. I'm certainly not talking about killing off anyone, nor should anyone else. We disagree politically and that's it.

CESum - you have a mental illness? so? I've known over 100 people who have mental illness, i've actually worked with them before. Most can function in society, though they may be impaired (which isn't their fault, so why do you want to punish them for it?). There are, however, a great number who just plain cannot live a normal life and need to be taken care of. It's sad that you feel we should just throw them in the street and let them freeze or starve.
So, I don't appreciate when I'm lumped in with people who can barely tie their shoes. I'm actually successful because I busted my ass. Your "oh poor people" attitude is exactly the kind of thing that prevents people from realizing their potential. The rest of your post I addressed above.

Mattp, you are a truly heartless bastard
Y'know, ad hominem attacks are not how you win friends and influence people.
mattp
Posts: 67/174		 What's your solution, Jomb? Steal the work and lives from millions of people to perpetuate a meaningless existence for a few hundred thousand? Give the government so much power that it squelches free trade and other freedoms?

Sounds a lot more heartless to me.

I also do not beleive that there are even hundreds of thousands of people who are totally incapable of supporting themselves or devoid of family to take care of them.
Jomb
Posts: 127/448		 Lots of people dont have family who care about them, or have family that would be too poor to support them.
Actually more people fit this than you think, hundreds of thousands. This may be small in comparison to the 300 million+ people in the US, but still, you're talking about killing off hundreds of thousands of innocent people for the crime of being handi-capped and poor.
Mattp, you are a truly heartless bastard
mattp
Posts: 66/174		 What kind of a person doesn't have family?

And I hate to sound cruel but yes, anyone that has so little worth that they can't etiher support themselves or be supported by loved ones does not have enough worth to be in this society.

The amount of people who fit that characterization are so fractional that its not even worth considering, and it is especially not worth implementing a societal suicide just to 'save' them.

Sir Plus Sign-- Proof that capitalism, even when its being dragged down by a socialist government, is viable.
Jomb
Posts: 126/448		 Mattp - You ASSUME? well, what if they dont have family? Or what if their family cant afford it? So it's ok for handi-cap people to be left out in the street, if they are from the poor?

CESum - you have a mental illness? so? I've known over 100 people who have mental illness, i've actually worked with them before. Most can function in society, though they may be impaired (which isn't their fault, so why do you want to punish them for it?). There are, however, a great number who just plain cannot live a normal life and need to be taken care of. It's sad that you feel we should just throw them in the street and let them freeze or starve.
1106
Posts: 22/89
Originally posted by Jomb
CESum - were you not paying attention to what you were reading? Rom Manic clearly said that Suicide, etc. would NOT be compeltely eliminated under socialism, just that some depression is caused by money issue (a simple fact).
Exactly, which is why it's stupid to bring it into the conversation. It's nothing but a red herring. "Social problems" are the most commonly used distraction in these arguments, but they do nothing to bolster the credibility of your claims.

All you capitalist fanatics - under your system what happens to people who are mentally ill? slow? handi-capped? would you just let them out on the street to starve to death?
I'm sorry, your strawman is no good here. As a person with a mental illness, I take extreme fucking offense to that. Who the hell says that everyone who suffers from mental health issues/physical disabilities is a drooling retard with no common sense or ability? I think not. Everyone, regardless of ability, can contribute something to society (save the brain dead). Having a disability is not an excuse for someone to sit on their ass and whine about how bad their life is.

Ziff
Posts: 762/1800		 Scandinavia appears to be doing fairly well right now.
mattp
Posts: 65/174
All you capitalist fanatics - under your system what happens to people who are mentally ill? slow? handi-capped? would you just let them out on the street to starve to death?

I assume their families will take care of them. It is no one's responsiblity to do so, unless of course they want to. Since they live in a much richer society than they would under a socialist government, they have an overall better quality of life... just as the poor today have luxuries that kings of ages past could only dream of.

What happens to these people under socialism?

Would you rather live in a society where everyone is mildly poor or one where only greedy back-stabbing bastards can get ahead? There is much more to life then money, i say.


I would rather live in a society where a person's work will get them ahead. That is capitalism.

Greedy back-stabbing bastards... nice smear. unfortunately for you capitalism encourages cooperation for greater profit. Don't be a tool.
Jomb
Posts: 125/448		 CESum - were you not paying attention to what you were reading? Rom Manic clearly said that Suicide, etc. would NOT be compeltely eliminated under socialism, just that some depression is caused by money issue (a simple fact).

All you capitalist fanatics - under your system what happens to people who are mentally ill? slow? handi-capped? would you just let them out on the street to starve to death? Would you rather live in a society where everyone is mildly poor or one where only greedy back-stabbing bastards can get ahead? There is much more to life then money, i say.
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