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Sakura
Posts: 51/227		 Let's try to not have every thread BGNG posts in erupt into a pointless flamewar/debate next time, kk?

Disch
Posts: 59/202
Originally posted by BGNG
To clarify, I was referring to "server" as the computer with hosting services, assuming a fast connection.


In that case, I agree
FreeDOS +
Posts: 255/1312		 Well it's very possible to make a memorable name without cost, even against dynamic IPs... I have one for my dynamic IP with Comcast.
Guy Perfect
Posts: 147/451		 Absolutely. Commercial internet providers don't usually have ample bandwidth to shovel out to their hundreds of customers, so hosing a site off of one's own internet is sluggish at best. That's why I only use mine for personal activties and the occasional small-file distribution, like those CGI's earlier in this thread.

To clarify, I was referring to "server" as the computer with hosting services, assuming a fast connection. Servers used in corporations usually have very high speeds, in which case the performance of the computer would be the determining factor of its effectiveness as a server.

But for running a personal website, you are correct: It's more cost-effective to rent out someone else's connection and machine instead of using your own. The ramifications of this, however, is that you have a set of guidelines to follow that are not present if you were to run it yourself (maximum transmission/mo., things you can host, etc.).
Disch
Posts: 58/202
Originally posted by BGNG
4) It's very difficult to make a slow, crappy server. You would either have to dip below the 300MHz line or put Windows on it. Web servers can run with very little other software (not even a GUI), so all of a server's resources can be focused on web.


On the contrary. CPU power is not what makes the server -- the connection is. Having a 67 GHz CPU built by NASA is going to be slow as fuck if it's going through a shitty dialup connection. And as I'm sure most people here know -- it's very very easy to have a slow internet connection.

High speed connections and large bandwidth caps are a must. If your site is going to expect a decent level of traffic, you're going to need a high upload speed and an even higher bandwidth cap (or no cap at all). Financing these out-of-pocket costs much, much more than just renting space on an existing server which has plenty of both. And unless your ISP graciously offers you a static IP address at no extra cost -- that's another thing you'll have to dish out some green for (my old roommate in Berkeley was paying an extra $20 a month for a static IP for our DSL connection -- making the static IP alone more expensive than just renting a server). Plus you have to shell out for a domain name (which many servers will include in the package if you rent space from them)... unless you expect everyone to remember your URL as http://62.16.194.78/ or the like.

Not to mention, unless you're purchasing an extra internet connection to dedicate solely to your site (which I'd assume you wouldn't do, since you're trying to avoid paying extra), you're sharing your site's bandwidth with your own personal web-browsing bandwidth. So if you do any filesharing or large file downloads on the side, you'll be slowing down how your server appears to visitors. Likewise if your server demands most of your bandwidth, your browsing speed will slow.

The bottom line is it's usually more efficient to just shell out the money to rent a server, as Gavin suggested. Not only does this save you from the above expenses and problems, it also saves you the hassle of having to maintain/upkeep your server.


Hosting companies specialize in this kind of thing. They do it in bulk, and they can dedicate all their time/energy to it. So they're generally going to be of a higher calibur than something you could do on your own in your free time -- especially if you're restricting yourself to a budget.

Of course there are times when someone would want/need to have their own server... but for something like a small personal/hobby site, that's virtually never the case.
Sliver X
Posts: 10/62		 Introduction

A string of asine and retarded posts have been recently initiated by one BGNG, slapping a heaping mound of ghey on boards already plagued with said gheyness.

Plan of Action

The mature thing would be to ignore this douchebag, bug as he/she/it seems to thrive on drama and refuses to acknowledge that most of he/she/its points are stupid and not even worth arguing about, I am compelled to make a statement expressing my general annoyance with he/she/it. I am sure I'm not alone.


Final Words
You are a moron, and nobody cares about anything you say. Go back to making third rate F-Zero editors and keep your opinions about anything to yourself. The world at large will thank you. Also, suck my balls.
Gavin
Posts: 118/181
Originally posted by BGNG
Originally posted by Gavin
Originally posted by BGNG
1) If you're going to set up a server, it's most likely for a business or non-profit organization and cost won't be coming out of your pocket.

2) My files won't be hosted on my server. That's just stupid. Why would I give out all my personal bandwidth to the internet like that?

3) Renting a server means playing by someone else's rules. In a techie's world, that's sinful.

4) It's very difficult to make a slow, crappy server. You would either have to dip below the 300MHz line or put Windows on it. Web servers can run with very little other software (not even a GUI), so all of a server's resources can be focused on web.


I suppose you should then make the distinction between your "techie tinkerer's world" and the "real professional world". Don't get me wrong, I love to tinker and I love to play. When I was running my own web server I had lots of fun and learned a bunch, I just don't happen to think it's very practical for websites that face exposure to the Internet at large.

Try quoting only a portion of the post next time. I have no idea which of those you were replying to. Plus, if anyone wants to read my entire post, they can just look up one. There's no need to quote the whole thing.


How about you try sucking my balls.
Guy Perfect
Posts: 145/451
Originally posted by Gavin
Originally posted by BGNG
1) If you're going to set up a server, it's most likely for a business or non-profit organization and cost won't be coming out of your pocket.

2) My files won't be hosted on my server. That's just stupid. Why would I give out all my personal bandwidth to the internet like that?

3) Renting a server means playing by someone else's rules. In a techie's world, that's sinful.

4) It's very difficult to make a slow, crappy server. You would either have to dip below the 300MHz line or put Windows on it. Web servers can run with very little other software (not even a GUI), so all of a server's resources can be focused on web.


I suppose you should then make the distinction between your "techie tinkerer's world" and the "real professional world". Don't get me wrong, I love to tinker and I love to play. When I was running my own web server I had lots of fun and learned a bunch, I just don't happen to think it's very practical for websites that face exposure to the Internet at large.

Try quoting only a portion of the post next time. I have no idea which of those you were replying to. Plus, if anyone wants to read my entire post, they can just look up one. There's no need to quote the whole thing.
Gavin
Posts: 117/181
Originally posted by BGNG
1) If you're going to set up a server, it's most likely for a business or non-profit organization and cost won't be coming out of your pocket.

2) My files won't be hosted on my server. That's just stupid. Why would I give out all my personal bandwidth to the internet like that?

3) Renting a server means playing by someone else's rules. In a techie's world, that's sinful.

4) It's very difficult to make a slow, crappy server. You would either have to dip below the 300MHz line or put Windows on it. Web servers can run with very little other software (not even a GUI), so all of a server's resources can be focused on web.


I suppose you should then make the distinction between your "techie tinkerer's world" and the "real professional world". Don't get me wrong, I love to tinker and I love to play. When I was running my own web server I had lots of fun and learned a bunch, I just don't happen to think it's very practical for websites that face exposure to the Internet at large.
Guy Perfect
Posts: 144/451		 1) If you're going to set up a server, it's most likely for a business or non-profit organization and cost won't be coming out of your pocket.

2) My files won't be hosted on my server. That's just stupid. Why would I give out all my personal bandwidth to the internet like that?

3) Renting a server means playing by someone else's rules. In a techie's world, that's sinful.

4) It's very difficult to make a slow, crappy server. You would either have to dip below the 300MHz line or put Windows on it. Web servers can run with very little other software (not even a GUI), so all of a server's resources can be focused on web.
Randy53215
Posts: 92/726
Originally posted by Gavin

sure... or you could just pay the god damned $5 a month and not have to worry about maintaining a slow, crappy server on your own


I agree fully! I wont visit your site if I feel like im on dial up.
Gavin
Posts: 114/181
Originally posted by BGNG
You can get a reasonable laptop for around $700 nowadays (after rebate, of course). Just check out some of the stuff at NewEgg. Not top of the line by any means, but who said a server has to be ultra fast? Memory's a good thing, and hard disk space is a must, but if you're just serving web content, then...

...well, an AMD-K6-2 processor running at 433MHz on a 4GB hard drive with 124MB of RAM will do you just fine. (-:


sure... or you could just pay the god damned $5 a month and not have to worry about maintaining a slow, crappy server on your own
Guy Perfect
Posts: 143/451		 You can get a reasonable laptop for around $700 nowadays (after rebate, of course). Just check out some of the stuff at NewEgg. Not top of the line by any means, but who said a server has to be ultra fast? Memory's a good thing, and hard disk space is a must, but if you're just serving web content, then...

...well, an AMD-K6-2 processor running at 433MHz on a 4GB hard drive with 124MB of RAM will do you just fine. (-:
HyperHacker
Posts: 1036/5072
Originally posted by BGNG
That's one thing people don't realize: Laptops are ideal machines for servers. They're lightweight, fit anywhere, have compact interfaces and all sorts of connections, have the input devices and monitor built right in, the battery acts as an on-the-spot UPS... The list goes on. Just stick one of those in the same place as the router and you've got yourself a server.

They're also really expensive. Especially since you need to buy a monitor (the one built in) with each one.
neotransotaku
Posts: 737/1860
Originally posted by BGNG
Anyhow, you mentioned that PHP can do that crazy freaky wacky thing I noted. I'm curious at to how you might go about doing it. Would it be by calling shell commands or can it actually do it itself?
PHP can execute system commands with system() However, one could probably extend php source code to have the internal capability of doing what you said, although a little messy and not worth the effort, and would make CGI a better solution.
Guy Perfect
Posts: 142/451		 So the whole "I helped my ISP get started" means I don't know how the internet works? Most ISPs these days put you on a bus with other customers on an internal network. You are incorrect: Not everybody has their own IP. People only tend to get their own IPs when they connect through a dial-up with DHCP or some select DSL providers. Otherwise, you're using your ISP's router.

Chances are, if you and your neighbors are using the same broadband ISP, you'll find that going to something like http://www.whatismyip.org/ will show that you all in fact have the SAME IP address. The reason you can each browse the net seperately is because your ISP's router is maintaining TCP connections with the web servers. Based on the connection ID, the router can determine where to send each incoming packet.

For example, the external IP of my router is 172.17.100.101. Anyone who knows jack rubbish about internet can tell you that this is a Class B private IP address, which cannot be routed over the internet. Internally, my router's IP address is 192.168.1.1, which is a Class C private IP address. The IP that people use from the internet to access my router, however, is 63.78.181.101, which is a public IP address registered to my ISP. When my ISP gets incoming requests to that address, they have it run through a NAT and forward it to my router.

Everyone else in the neighborhood does, in fact, have the same IP address. The static IP option was designed for businesses for an additional fee, but due to my assistence, my ISP gave me the first one (*.101) for free. Yes, FreeDOS, I am that special.


In a feeble attempt to connect this post to the topic at hand...

With your own public IP address, you can run CGI applications on your server without fear of restriction.

(Perfect connective sentence. No one will ever know)


Anyhow, you mentioned that PHP can do that crazy freaky wacky thing I noted. I'm curious at to how you might go about doing it. Would it be by calling shell commands or can it actually do it itself?
FreeDOS +
Posts: 247/1312
Originally posted by BGNG
I helped my ISP get started, so they gave me my own public IP address for free. With that, I can just have them forward incoming requests to my router and deal with things from there as if I was a network administrator for some corporation. I've got several services available, such as web hosting, Remote Desktop (for using my computer while out of the house) and even the game Soldat.

I'm sorry, but it doesn't even sound like you understand how the Internet typically works... everyone has their own IP and anyone can know it. In fact, knowing the end user's IP address is essential to the flow of data for the server. Plus most ISPs don't randomly block ports... I know that I don't have any blocked ports. You're not that special.

Originally posted by BGNG
For the sake of a bizarre example, what if you wanted the server to scan in a picture from a scanner and use it as a texture to render in an OpenGL scene, then display a snapshot of that scene to the web user? You could do that with CGI, but I'm pretty sure it can't be done in PHP.

Actually it can be done with PHP, even though the language wasn't designed for it. PHP's a darned handy language to work with even for general programming (well at least PHP5, earlier versions are hell)
Guy Perfect
Posts: 141/451
Originally posted by Ikuzou
I've heard once that laptops can't resist the heat, and ruins the hard disc.. watch out.
In that case, you should not leave any laptop on for more than a few hours, and certainly don't let it connect to the internet.

That's not really much of a problem nowadays. Laptops can play Half Life 2 at a reasonable quality with their enormous screen resolutions as it is, so they can certainly deal with heat and hard disk activity.

Originally posted by Coby
Stick to PHP, it's nice, fast and easy.
Nice, perhaps. Easy, once you get the hang of it. Fast, not so much. With PHP, the server has to load, parse, interperate and execute as opposed to CGI, where the server has to load and execute. PHP takes up a significant amount of resources over time more than CGI, which on performance-critical servers means a major cost issue.

PHP is a good option, don't get me wrong, but I wouldn't say it's better than CGI. PHP has its limitations where some freakishly obscure applications are possible with CGI. For the sake of a bizarre example, what if you wanted the server to scan in a picture from a scanner and use it as a texture to render in an OpenGL scene, then display a snapshot of that scene to the web user? You could do that with CGI, but I'm pretty sure it can't be done in PHP.

Besides, how many web developers in this forum don't already know some other languge? It's not like there's any learning curve involved with CGI in that regard.
Coby
Posts: 44/123		 Stick to PHP, it's nice, fast and easy. Just compare XK's example with BGNG's.
Xkeeper
Posts: 1315/5653		 Compared to PHP: 

<?php

    print "Your IP is ". $REMOTE_ADDR;

?>



Yeaaaaaaah.


(note: this example only works with REGISTER GLOBALS ON! If it is NOT on, it wll be something such as $_SERVER['REMOTE_ADDR'] instead!)
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