during and before the Revolutionary war. Beliefs and politics can drive men to do insane things. Remember that the British regarded most American's as terrorists. I'm sure that if I lived back then, I would have supported the war... but would have stayed far away from it. Like, no violence and whatnot.
I'm just trying to offer a comparison that you could equate the terrorists to.. because the behavior of terrorists and revolutionaries were typically the same. Both have/had a belief that they were being opressed by outside forces.. and both lashed out against it. Technology has allowed the terrorists of our day to lash out in more extreme and, I guess effective ways. The revolutionaries had tea parties, lexington and concord.. and the killing of british tax collectors.. and the war. So yeah. Equal in their times I'd say. It's just alot scarier today because terrorists have access to so many more new materials and technology. But it's typically the same ideology. "The man is keeping us down...".... "DOWN WITH THE MAN". Type of thing.
Yeah, that was a rant. But it's relevant.
geeogree
Posts: 88/207 |
of course it's close-minded.... it's not your opinion
anything that you don't think is right must therefore be wrong right away. no if's and's or but's about it.
and you want to deal in fact?
fact: cartoons were published by a newspaper.
fact: muslims burned down embassies in response to the cartoons.
fact: burning down embassies as a method of protest to cartoons is stupid
thank you  |
Wurl
Posts: 477/842 |
Blogs are merely editorials; not strictly fact. I wouldn't base an argument off an editorial, especially when it's close-minded BS. |
geeogree
Posts: 87/207 |
of course.... if it's opinion then it is instantly invalid
when did I say it was a "real publication"?
I just said it was an interesting perspective on the subject.
But of course, that doesn't matter to you. All you wanted was some way to dismiss what was said as false. Didn't really matter how you did it. You'd rather take the easy way out and just dismiss the entire thing because it's "blog" rather than look at the arguments and think about them. |
Wurl
Posts: 475/842 |
Originally posted by geeogree
http://strongconservative.blogspot.com/2006/02/choice-is-coming.html
And it's a blog, not a "real" publication. |
geeogree
Posts: 86/207 |
http://strongconservative.blogspot.com/2006/02/choice-is-coming.html
that is where it comes from...
the link also has links in it that are mentioned in the article but didn't come through
Arwon: yeah, it is culture war. The western culture vs the Islamic culture.
http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110007760
read that link.... it's quite long, but it is something to also consider. If you choose not to I'll give the quick run-down. Basically the second article says that "western" societies are not reproducing enough to sustain themselves without immigration. As opposed to "Muslim" countries which are strikingly opposite. (birth rates in the west averaging 1-2 people per woman and in "muslim" areas up to 6 or 7 per woman) Basically it comes down to numbers. The Islamic people will become more numerous than the rest of the people on the planet. This is eventually going to have ramafications and possibly war.
I personally can't imagine "the West" giving in to people that say "Freedom of speech is western terrorism" or "Slay those who insult Islam" |
Ziff
Posts: 607/1800 |
Please post a link to that article.
Complete reproduction without proper documentation makes this moderator sad  |
Arwon
Posts: 111/631 |
Garbage. Culture war garbage. OMG PEOPLE WHO ARE DIFFERENT ARE MOVING HERE THEY'LL NEVER ASSIMILATE AND THEY'LL TAKE OVER. Same tune people have been singing for centuries everytime there's immigration.
That Jesus quote is hardly the only one you could produce to compare to Islam, the stuff about Sharia law in Canada is totally off the mark, and the whole article doesn't recognise just how widely varied and widely interpreted Sharia can be between, say, Nigeria, Canada and Indonesia. |
geeogree
Posts: 85/207 |
An interesting opinion a came across today about the impact of the cartoons.
"Recent world events have exposed the reality of the conflict between the West and Islam. I do not believe that this conflict is confined to only radical Islam and the West. This is because the majority or significant segment of Muslim immigrants to Western nations believe in the imposition of Sharia within the European and North American nations they have immigrated to. In Britain, 61% of Muslims want Sharia implemented, 30% in the Netherlands, and a shocking 37% of British Muslims think Jews are a legitimate target according to a YouGov poll. Further, more than half of Muslims believe it is "right to boycott Holocaust Memorial Day and believe that the Jewish community has no interest in the plight of the Palestinians and has too much influence over British foreign policy."
This illustrates a fundamental chasm between how Muslims and westerners think, regardless of whether they were born in the West, live in the Middle East, or immigrated to the West. At some point, Western nations will be confronted with a tremendously difficult question: will they give in to Islamic law or reject it? The Mohammed cartoons have further highlighted the inability of Islam to mesh with Western liberal values like freedom of speech, expression, religion, and the separation of church and state. I believe they have also strengthened Samuel Huntington's hypothesis regarding the coming (or present) clash of civilizations.
Freedom of expression has virtually no value in Islam. It appears that Middle Eastern countries are at the same level of individual freedom that Europe experienced in the middle ages. Of course there are exceptions to this rule, but the similarities for most Arab and Muslim nations are striking. People are killed for challenging the established orthodoxy, women are treated as property, and the religious establishment effectively makes the law without any accountability or responsibility to the people.
I believe eventually Europe, and perhaps North America and Australia later on, will be faced with the decision on whether to expel Muslims from their societies and back to their countries of origin in order to preserve their freedom, heritage, and culture. The expansion of Muslim populations in Europe has been pointed out clearly by Mark Steyn in his piece "Its the Demography, Stupid" . It goes against every fiber of my being to think that such an event could occur in a free country, but when faced with cultural and demographic destruction, a nation like France, Germany, or Britain may have no other choice. The only other choice would be surrender, and I cannot imagine the people of Europe allowing that to happen, even the French.
Muslim protests over the Mohammed cartoons have called for the death of those who insult Mohammed, warned of another 9-11, and incited violence of every kind. I am not sure if Islam is truly a religion of violence, but its followers are certainly doing their best to make me think that the end-product of following Mohammed and Islam is violence. And beyond violence, hypocrisy abounds for Muslims. They denounce the cartoons, which were undoubtedly distasteful and disrepectful, but yet Muslim countries and individuals constantly spew venom at Israel, America, the Catholic Church, Christians, Jews, and others. Lets not forget that the Taliban also targeted Buddhists by destroying century old statues because they were in opposition to Islam. If nothing else, Islam tends to a destructive individual and collective mentality today.
The notion of terrorism, suicide bombings, assassinations, beheadings, and fear are inextricably linked to modern day Islam throughout the world. When one thinks of such things, one cannot help but think of Al Qaida, Saudi Arabia, Daniel Pearl, Munich, Iran, or Islam. This is regardless of one's personal views of the Bush administration and the War on Terror. Who would ever think that the Danes would be the subject of such hate and anger? The Danes never hurt anyone!
At minimum, Muslims who claim to be in favor of free speech appear to be of the opinion: free speech, as long as you don't... *fill in the blank*. Free speech is fine for the production of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, calling Jews the product of pigs and monkeys, burning effigies of Bush, Cheney, Sharon, and the Danish PM, but don't dare criticize the prophet. Such reverance for Mohammed verges on idolatry itself, the very thing Muslims are allegedly trying to avoid.
Islam has no ability or capacity for introspection because of its inherent nature. The fundamental tenets of Islam differ profoundly from Christianity and other religions. The Five Pillars of Islam are: to bear witness that there is none worthy of worship save Allah and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, to observe Prayer (Salat), to Pay Zakat (Alms giving), to perform the Pilgrimage to the House of Allah (Hajj), and to Observe fasting during Ramadhan." (Bukhari)
Contrast that with the teaching of Jesus, "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: Love youneighborur as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." (Matthew 22:37-40)
While Islam may mean peace in name, it does not translate into peace in action by the works of its followers. Significant numbers of Muslims seem intent on imposing their views on others. There have been many movements throughout the West to have Sharia imposed in various forms. Specifically in Ontario, Canada, a movement to have a form of Sharia introduced into the provincial code was put forward to solve civil disputes. Fortunately, this caused an uproar and the proposal was shot down.
Sharia law practiced in the Middle East allows the death penalty for adultery, says alimony needs to be paid for three months only, and tends to award fathers custody of children in divorce proceedings.
It is important that the spread of radical Islam is stopped. Most Muslims in Western nations would probably agree with that statement was well. However, I believe it may be important, perhaps essential, that the spread of Islam in general be slowed through immigration controls and security screening. This is nothing to be politically correct about because our very way of life and fundamental values are at stake. We should watch with a keen interest the events in Europe as they unfold because of their large Muslim populations."
By: Johnathan D. Strong |
Arwon
Posts: 110/631 |
Originally posted by Snow Tomato
Have you heard that in response to the cartoons, Muslims have organized a contest to see who can make the best political holocaust cartoon?
It was some Iranian newspaper. I believe the Danish paper at the centre of all this wants to reprint them, or take part in the contest. |
Sin Dogan
Posts: 301/861 |
Originally posted by Snow Tomato
But you don't want to seem like a bunch of radical extremists... because then you just take away from your cause that much more. Which is why flag burning although it does get people's attention.. generally makes the protesters look like radical nuts. However, most people have a negative image of protesters to begin with... which seems rather silly to me.
Have you heard that in response to the cartoons, Muslims have organized a contest to see who can make the best political holocaust cartoon? I saw it on CNN today, and I'm too lazy to dig up a link right now. But, this is reaching ridiculous proportions. I have a feeling it's not so much about the cartoons themselves... but the obvious long legacy of hatred between these two ethnic groups.
But I got irked when the CNN reporter was like "Thousands of cartoons have been published by people of the Muslim faith poking fun at the darkest hours of jewish history, and no reaction has been as extreme as the muslim reaction to these cartoons.". She just said it in a way that made me want to throw my shoes at the television screen. Paula Zahn. But a Muslim cartoonist who was interveiwed said something good. He said that he has no qualms about depicting Ariel Sharon as a murderer in cartoons, but he'd never take the Isreali god and draw him killing people. I can think of nothing more offensive to the Muslim people.. especially when they're under such scrutiny from the Western World. It was kind of like telling someone who's overweight and insecure that they're fat and ugly. Of course you're going to get an extreme reaction, especially when they're already defensive and self concious about it.
Still, it's not so much about the cartoons as it is the legacy of hatred between these two groups.
Well yea, as people have noted, it's the good people who are always underspoken. Farheed Zakaria is a writer for Newsweek and he's a strong minded Muslim whom I like very much.
And the hatred really hasn't existed for too long, contrary to belief. When Jerusalem was under Islamic control, there was prosperity and safety for the Jews, Muslims, and Christians.
And for good measure, not only is scrutiny an issue, but I could see how some fellow Muslims would think God has forsaken us. (although that's NOT so much the issue) With recent calamities like the Tsunami and earthquakes of South Asia having heavy casualties in Muslim majority countries like Indonesia and Pakistan, respectively. Also, the more recent prejudice fueled genocides have been against Muslims, namely the incidents in Gujarat and Srebenica. Then you have regional conflicts and conflicts in general with Muslims involved. Kosovo, India, China, Russia, Israel, Thailand, etc. And let's not forget that in Arabian countries like the UAE and Qatar(well off, extremely safe countries to live in), there are people that have simply been disappearing. (motivated by the US) Yea, these things happen, but who remembers?
When are we ever known as people who made great strides in medicine, mathematics, poetry, navigation(hello, we invented the compass!), and not those who shed blood and convert infidels. I'm sick and tired of that kind of crap. But I can't get angry when people become ignorant, because then I'll just be painted as a terrorist. Heh, it wouldn't be the first time I was called one. |
Cynthia
Posts: 1463/5814 |
Have you heard that in response to the cartoons, Muslims have organized a contest to see who can make the best political holocaust cartoon?
Didn't they cancel that contest the other day? I mean, there's really no need to do the eye-for-an-eye thing here, or even reward that mentality. |
windwaker
Posts: 55/235 |
Originally posted by Wurl
I burned an American Flag once. Though it was small. Great fun.
Now smoke a joint with a page from the bible and brag about it (like the Emmanual Goldstein of 2600). |
Wurl
Posts: 465/842 |
I burned an American Flag once. Though it was small. Great fun. |
| This is a long thread. Click here to view it. |
. And that's not true at ALL. Not by a longshot. I know alot of Muslims.. and none of them are like that guy. They're nice loving accepting people. There's always going to be a few assholes that mess things up for the group. So, I say we deal with some of the assholes. Not through war on a particular country... but through actually just sending people on the trails of terrorists. Keep it confined to finding the person and putting in in jail. (Of course holding him under Constitutional law.. allowing a fair trial and whatnot, so it doesn't get out of hand).