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| User | Post |
| Trapster Posts: 2143/3604 |
Good that they apologized. Itīs more fun when all kinds of people can play together. Except for asshats who only wants to cause trouble. |
| Kasumi-Astra Posts: 50/258 |
So, Blizz have formally appolgised and reversed the action against the player in question. They have also brought their policy under review. Grats, Blizz!
Thanks also for the Universal Application of WoW for the Mac. 60fps on maximum settings on my iMac Core Duo? Bliss  |
| Wurl Posts: 340/842 |
Originally posted by Wurl Yeah, because I figure there at least a few Christian guild as I mentioned before. Edit: That's sounds too sarcastic since I'm serious. I'd fix it, but I have sleeping to do. |
| windwaker Posts: 20/235 |
Bah, who cares about sexuality when religious guilds are fine. If they're going to ban all guilds that have to do with something political, they might as well ban them too. |
| Kasumi-Astra Posts: 46/258 |
Yoronosuku: The GLBT guilds aren't formed to inform other people of their sexuality. Can you honestly say you've ever seen it in General before? They come together to play with similar people just like every other guild does. Blizzard have even said that they don't mind GLBT guilds, just that they can't talk about it in General. You can argue that it's in our best interests for Blizzard to do this, but then again, would you tolerate someone else who you've never met before defining what you can say in what they think is your best interest? I don't think you would. You can then argue that Blizzard are doing this for the good of the community, but then again they'd be advocating the "don't ask, don't tell" hypocrisy.
I've been accused of bringing politics into a virgin world. The only politics brought into the matter is other people saying what is right and what is wrong for me to say. |
| Schweiz oder etwas Posts: 473/2046 |
I read her posts... I wrote my mininovel because of that.
... >.> |
| Yoronosuku Posts: 241/1239 |
I'd like to think that while I DID read all the posts in this thread that I can still be entitled to my opinion in a topic ._.;; Wait a second...This is Acmlm's we're talking about. OF COURSE I CAN'T!  |
| Ziff Posts: 502/1800 |
Did anyone actually read Kasumi's posts?
Wait a second...This is Acmlm's we're talking about. OF COURSE THEY DIDN'T! |
| Yoronosuku Posts: 239/1239 |
Originally posted by Cheveyo ChowilawuOriginally posted by Yoronosuku I probably could have worded that alot better...what I really mean is on a place like that ESPECIALLY, a videogame, where you know it is the largest breeding ground for intolerance due to internet trolls, immature '12 year olds', and other stereotypes of people who act troublesome on the internet, it is probably in your best interest to not mention it. Especially since like its been said, to enjoy the game, you do not need to know the person you are playing with or against's orientation. All you need to know is if they are with you or against you in terms of the game, and any hard feelings towards them relative only to their actions as a character in a game. |
| Sinfjotle Posts: 319/1697 |
Grey should've played on an RP or PVPRP server. |
| Thexare Posts: 280/1104 |
Originally posted by Yoronosuku Perhaps you didn't know, but this implies that you would have to stay completely silent about the issue just about anywhere in America. And I'd be willing to bet it'd mean similar things in many other countries, too. =/ |
| Wurl Posts: 269/842 |
I don't play World of Warcraft, but are some of the "real hardcore" Christian guilds all like "God Hates Fags, faggot"? |
| Yoronosuku Posts: 238/1239 |
Originally posted by Kasumi-Astra He has his facts right, it seems. I read his post again and he makes the very good point that even mentioning it at all is very unecessary. It is a game, and any unecessary discrimination should be avoided. Okay, so you are GLBT. That's nice. Whether the guild is GLBT friendly or not should not matter, because there is no real reason to even be discussing these kind of things on an online game. If you don't want to be discriminated, theres no need to even let people know in the first place. Ignorance sometimes can be bliss. By advertising a GLBT friendly guild, you acknowledge the presence of these kind of people and that causes people to realises this and possibly discriminate the people who will join this guild. It's just stirring up a bunch of trouble. Here is an idea. I walk in front of a beehive. For intents and purposes pretend the bees can understand language. Now I can be a sworn enemy of the bees, the...bug spray or something! And well, they don't know this because they're behind their hive (in this case, text). Now they would get along ok and have a decent conversation with me, unless I unecessarily mentioned that I was bugspray, then they would hate me. Wow, that example is really, really stupid .__.;; If you are in a place where you know that people are going to discriminate against GLBT people, calling attention to GLBTs is only going to cause trouble. Maybe being banned from the game is very extreme, but it is not necessary. You understand what I mean now? |
| Cruel Justice Posts: 596/1637 |
Sure, they should be allowed to play all the time regardless of whether or not they brag about being gay. Newbs brag all the time, do we care? No, we simply kill or ignore them. It's just a game and stereotyping is acinine. |
| Kasumi-Astra Posts: 45/258 |
Pride is completely different. Gay people who advertise their pride in-game are in for a heck of a lot of grief, and do deserve a warning. Just mentioning a guild is GLBT friendly does not.
There are many reasons why gay WoW players can benefit from a GLBT guild in WoW, which I have addressed in my post. The simple point is that it's their right to come together and play, but they're unsure exactly what they're able to say and they're not allowed to even mention that their guild is GLBT friendly in-game. You're jumping to conclusions just like many other people were quick to do in the forums. Gay guilds do not discuss sexuality in-game, and the few that exist never have. Please get your facts right, this is a very crucial and sensitive subject  |
| Schweiz oder etwas Posts: 468/2046 |
Down, Wurl.
I agree with Kutske. I play WoW to escape the pressures of life. I don't play because I want to have long-winded political discussions throughout the Barrens with my intellectual and emotional peers. In fact, I listen to Barrens general because I LIKE basking in the idiocy of Barrens chat and just kinda turning off my serious side for a while and actually BECOMING Marthius, an undead priest who can't hold his own against a rogue. I don't want pieces of the real world being thrown into a fantasy game. The GLBT community can do whatever they like in terms of making guilds that promote their pride, but ultimately there's no real reason for it. I mean, a guild is there to make the game more social, to give you people to group with and kick some Alliance ass with. Yes, while that does mean you can find more GLBT people to be social online with, at the same time making a guild that's GLBT-friendly (because apparently other guilds aren't? I have yet to see a guild with an anti GLBT vibe to it...) would probably cause so much of a commotion that the guild would lose sight of what it means to be a guild and instead just stand there and take fire from anti-groups, people who don't care, immature assholes, and a cacaphony of people who just plain don't agree. Besides, online what is the difference between a GLBT person and everyone else? The same difference there is between a black person and a white person in the eyes of a racist in a world where the color of one's skin can't be seen anyway. It doesn't matter. Why should it suddenly be brought to attention when it never affected gameplay before? There's no sex in WoW. You can't change your character's gender mid game. Your appearance is dictated more by necessity than by fashion, and wearing some kind of tabard or armor of a certain color can't, like, prove that you're a certain color because there are pieces of equipment of the same color or style that give massive power bonuses. Shoot, I hate the way my shoulderpads look. But they give me an int bonus that I can't beat with anything else right now. Stats beat looks. Mobs and Alliance don't care about your sexual orientation. Hell, alliance can't even understand you when you're coming out to them. They just want you dead, and it sure as hell isn't because you're GLBT. So considering all of this, it seems like the only way you'd know that a person is friendly to or is GLBT would be by looking at the text below their name when you see them. Then the discrimination starts. Otherwise? Nothing. Remember, if you will, that by forming a guild that describes itself as GLBT friendly, the GLBT guild itself is making a comment that discriminates them from the rest of the players in a way that will breed further discrimination. That DOES violate the TOS, even if it's in a non-inflammatory way. It's entirely possible to be discriminatory without actually being hateful, and discrimination where it is unnecessary is, no matter what, discrimination. Do it. Argue in favor of the GLBT guild. The community has my support for power whenever they need it. But don't give any grief because you're not raiding dungeons because you're too busy posting on the forums about being a GLBT guild to actually play the game. |
| Wurl Posts: 263/842 |
This thread makes me feel like some gay secks. |
| Snow Tomato Posts: 225/798 |
I've read every line of this entire thread.. and I don't want to sound insensitive, but it's a videogame.
It's just pixels. I'm 100% behind the GLBT's community.. all the time. I hate intolerance and I hate discrimination. My best guy friend is gay, and plays WoW actually. I understand the discrimination that GLBT's face every day in the world. He's been beat up, he's been called names.. his father isn't on good terms with him. Trust me, it's complete and total injustice. People will be ignorant. But it's a videogame.. you're supposed to go on there and uh, do whatever they do in WoW. Guilds, I can understand you guys want to talk to each other. I think you should be able to talk freely among the members of your guild. Not too explicit, but just general things like "I'm going to see my girlfriend later" seems reasonable. I can't imagine Blizzard would bar a membership for saying that in the game.. that would be ridiculous. But.. don't take it too seriously. It's WoW. Just pixels. I guess I agree with Kutske. I do think Blizzard was a bit harsh in the statements... but in general.. you have got to realize that it's just a game. |
| Kasumi-Astra Posts: 44/258 |
Originally posted by GeckoYamoriUh, no. Unless you play on the alternate german and french servers for those who prefer to use their native language. The forums won't let me search for threads at the moment, but dig through and you will find a thread about Skullcrusher (I think). Certain servers in WoW have been adopted as "unofficial" servers for many countries that do not have dedicated WoW servers. Barrens Chat on skullcrusher is pretty much all spanish, even though it's an English Realm. The problems with grief from Spanish players are complained about a lot too. Serial ganking, kicking from guilds and raides, insults in spanish have all been reported. My guild moved in a migration from Warsong to Twilight's Hammer because of the Russians doing more-or-less the same thing. I guess that worked out in the end, because I'm now in Sofie and Jiz's alt guild
Anyway, here's my latest post for you to read, Enjoy: I've abstained from posting Sunday to wait for a blue reply today. I'm not suprised at the result and it's disappointing. I'm contemplating writing a letter to Blizzard sometime this week to make some suggestions and pose some questions. After having a while to think things over, here are a few points of concern: This incident, along with all the resulting fuss in the forums, especially the US forums has negated any possible good effect to be gained from Blizzard's policy. Many people have responded to the questions and the requests of people who wanted to make their feelings known to Blizzard with insult, preconceived ideas and even outright mockery. Many people in the US forums have not had the time to read up on the situation and have assumed that the guild in question was descriminating against heterosexual people by being GLBT only. The worse this became, the more opinionated people were and the more offensive the topic became. One forum troll even posted a thread saying that they were filing a lawsuit against Blizzard for a violation of their rights. Some pointed out that this was blatently bogus, though many continued to argue that all minorities are trying to corrupt World of Warcraft and the world in general by trying to win money for their own ends. I just can't read any of the topics in the US forum. How one person can be warned for uttering a four letter acronym, yet the so many posters on the forum are allowed to make untrue and hurtful comments is completely beyond me. Second is Blizzard's heavy handed response and "case closed" attitude. It seems that Blizzard has made this policy without even consulting the GLBT community for feedback or advice. This isn't just unique to this incident, it's the case in many other issues. One of those issues is with account suspension. I can appreciate the merits of having a zero tollerance policy with people who cheat outright, but this is far from Sara's supposed offence. The TOS state that Blizzard can interpret whatever it likes as harrassment or offence, but I simply don't believe that it is fair or just to penalise a person for something that is not clearly defined in the TOS, then refuse appeal. Blizzard have made no individual effort to consult GLBT players, or reassure them in any way that they need not worry about any warnings in the future. Third, in relation to the last point is with the TOS. Blizzard can interpret anything as harrassment, and they can punish a player as they see fit. I feel that this is unfair particularly in Sara's situation as the TOS do not offer any explicit restrictions on what may be said on the online chanels and where. If any unamgiuous rules were laid down, then Sara would probably have complied and none of this would've happened. At the very least, GLBT communties and players would be able to contact Blizzard directly to object to the TOS and campeign to have them changed. The TOS must be explicit and unambiguous if players are to have any clear understanding and to feel confident that they will not break any rules or attract unwanted attention. This also applies to what can be referenced or said. Are girls allowed to say they have girlfriends, are boys allowed to say they have boyfriends? If so, where? Fourth, Blizzard should adhere to their policy and set an example when it comes to using the terms "gay", "fag" and "homo" in-game. WoW should not be a place where this can happen freely and mildly punished. Reporting alone does not support this rule and I feel Blizzard should actively pursue those who use this language freely and innappropriately. This also goes for better moderation of the forums, and discouraging infactual and pre-conceived beliefs. Fifth, the situation on the forums shows that many people are still not accustomed to people in the gay community. We're not interested in discussing our sex lives in general chat, and we're most certainly not going to discuss them with you. In fact, we're only interested in refering to our partners in-game as you would yours. I'm going out tonight with my girlfriend. I have a boyfriend. We all discuss these personal issues in small talk in guild chat and whispers, homosexual and heterosexual players. You'll probably never encounter a gay player that ever mentions it at all. Players of the GLBT community have a right to come together and play just as you do, and just want to be left in peace. The problem we have at the moment is that we just don't know where we stand with what we're allowed to do in-game. As you can see from the experience with the forums, using forums to recruit for a GLBT friendly guild is perhaps not a good idea. I'd most likely start a web community first and recruit completely outside the WoW community, but many are concerned that they won't be able to support a community without a supportive set of guidelines and rules from Blizz. You can't say we're trying to bring politics into a virgin community. Sexual orientation is something that is built into everything you are, and the only politics involved are those that determine what we should or should not be allowed to say or do. The GLBT friendly guilds are just that- a GLBT friendly atmosphere where people of all different walks of life can play without any grief brought against them. It's an inclusive society that promotes tolerance and friendship. Lastly, I don't believe that Blizzard have mentioned any policy on transgenderism and gender identity. Make no mistake, gender identity is completely different and seperate from sexual preference. I'll assume for now that there isn't any. Although many transpeople have the same issues as gay people, you'll probably never be able to tell a transman or transwoman from their genetic counterparts online, because the only thing that is different about them is the sex they were born as. In every other aspect, they are who they appear to be. Even so, they can still face some grief online. I've never heard of any grief from a transperson, although they are just as concerned about these events as the rest of the GLB community. There you go then, I hope I've said something that every person can learn a little from. We've got our answer, albeit it's a very lazy and insensitive one. I don't wish to justify myself or GLBT people as a whole any more in here, and I think the thread should be closed. Blizzard are in contact with the GLBT community over this, and I think a statement is being made to one of the big publications that broke the story last weekend. I'll be supporting any efforts that people make to educate Blizzard and I'll be supporting Blizzard in learning how not to make such a big mistake in the future. I still love playing WoW, I still think it's the most important and amazing thing to happen in gaming this decade, and I'll be playing it until the realms slowly die. Now, Blizz, one more question I demand you answer... When can I have a universal binary of World of Warcraft for my iMac? :-) |
| Trapster Posts: 1785/3604 |
Originally posted by Kasumi-Astra I donīt have to read those logs. I can imagine how it is and itīs really sad. I think itīs great when people stand up for who and what they are. They have a certain place in our world but unfortunately, the society these days canīt see that. They donīt know what les, gay, bi and trans people are going through, having all these insults aimed at them. I think that Blizzard should prepare themselves to lose a large amount of players because of their opinions towards gay-friendly guilds. "Everyone's entitled to that BUT if someone opinionated takes offense then they get a warning from Blizzard. They can also get kicked out of guilds for just being gay, hell you can be treated like scum by your guild for just being a Girl." Bah. Thatīs just stupid. You have a really good point there, Kas. |
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