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| 0 users currently in ROM Hacking. |
| User | Post |
| HyperHacker Posts: 877/5072 |
Originally posted by fzeromanThe editor is only illegal if you've copied data from the ROM into the program itself as opposed to just reading it from whatever ROM you've opened. This actually makes ROM-less editors harder to make, since you have to supply non-copyright-infringing replacements for all resources that you need from the ROM (graphics, rendering information, etc). Heck if it's generic enough you could even say it's not designed to be compatible with the game but just happens to be, given the right offsets.  Hell you could edit maps in Pokémon or Super Mario RPG by copying a certain chunk out of the ROM, appending a bitmap header specifying 8-bit colour and a specific width, and editing it in MSPaint. (And then of course dumping them back into the ROM.) It'd just be a pain in the ass. 
I know what you mean about the backups though. Despite all my efforts I always end up being a popular target for theieves. I have actually opted for a "copy the game, stash the original and play the backup" method, but that means aquiring mod chips for my Gamecube and PS2, which is difficult for me.  |
| fzeroman Posts: 5/15 |
my 30 gcn games(some of witch are still hard to find now), f-zero x and n64 along with 4 controllers and starfox 64 were stolen from me
so as a legal right i should have a backup copy i shouldnt have to go out and buy it all again "but in general i dont get what the big deal is, if you own the game/movie/cd you should be able to make copies of it if you want so your friend can play/watch/listen to it without you waiting for your stuff back as long as you or anyone else doesnt make copies/profit and you intend on buying it when you can get enough money for it --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- rom-less editing is best for all level/game editors cause it leaves out most if any legal junk the companies might get you for the only data in there is data from the game thats needed for the change but i dont think its too much of a crime super mario 64 level editor "coming" f-zero x level editor dont tell me theres a goldeneye level editor out there personally its killing me , waiting for the track editor bgng |
| Guy Perfect Posts: 88/451 |
If it's your property, you can use the same ROM on seventeen computers simultaneously while playing on the console. There is no law against that.
Though I will begin to whine and complain if the next reply to this topic isn't in part somewhat related to ROM-less level editing. |
| NetSplit Posts: 67/144 |
Supposedly, you're not allowed to use the backup at the same time as the original. I'm not positive about that, though; I'm no lawyer.
And HyperHacker, if you transfer possession of the original game to someone else, then you can also transfer the ROM files with them. You don't have to destroy them. |
| Guy Perfect Posts: 87/451 |
F-Zero Climax is the one with passwords. F-Zero X Expansion Kit requires you to look at the on-screen readout of the coordinate data and write them down by hand, which is sloppy at best. You wouldnt' believe the trouble I had getting textures right in the DD-1 and DD-2 Cups when all I had was coordinate info and some video recordings of the tracks.
Self-dumps are legal, and you can use them however you want, with anything you want, during any time of day you want, while eating anything you want. There are no restrictions on that. The only thing that intellectual property laws guard against is distributing the ROM dump without authorization. Everything else, including multiple copies of a ROM, are perfectly legal if it's yours. |
| HyperHacker Posts: 868/5072 |
Wait, let me get this straight... in place of a ROM, your editor can import and export passwords used by the in-game track editor? So really, it's the same idea as any other ROM editor that can import/export levels, except for two key differences: One, it doesn't need the ROM to edit imported levels, and two, it imports/exports them as a code rather than to a file. You still do need a ROM to get tracks from and test with, but the ROM may be stored on a real N64 cartridge instead of dumped to your PC.
Actually I guess my Mario World Reconfigurator does the same, with the sprite editor. It does require a ROM, but it could potentially work without one given just the sprite codes. Except it'd be kind of pointless, since you can't input the codes into SMW itself, and you could just write down your ideas and input them later. (Not so with a big 3D track, unless you're pretty damn good at drawing in 3D.  )
BTW, unless me and a lot of other people here are wrong, ROMs are legal if you dump them from your own cartridge; it's only illegal to transfer them to or from someone else. An N64 Gameshark is capable of dumping ROMs using nothing more than itself and a parallel cable, and it's ridiculously easy (open the communication program, go to RAM Editor, click Dump ROM, wait a long time). I've done it various times. (Why spend 2 hours scouring the web for an illegal copy when I can have my own legal one in 20 minutes? ) Just thought you might like to know. (There are other conditions, though. You have to destroy the ROM if you get rid of the cartridge, and can't use both at the same time. It's a backup and only a backup.) |
| NEONswift Posts: 44/150 |
Originally posted by BGNG LOL ok that statement i made was flawed but it was still relevant concerning the need for a rom even without it being directly linked to the editor. Although i didnt really take into account the whole at work/school scenario which would entertain me no end  |
| Guy Perfect Posts: 86/451 |
"Hey, guys! I made this great course! I don't know if it works or not because I haven't tested it, but isn't it awesome!?"
That's not a likely scenario, NEONswift, you know that. Those who don't have the Expansion Kit will be required to have a ROM at hand to test their tracks. If they have neither, then they won't be able to test the tracks and I highly doubt someone will say "Did it work well? I'd try it myself, but I can't." If you have the Expansion Kit, then you can test the courses in that. If you have a ROM, then you can test the courses in that. Otherwise, I can only figure using the editor if you have some time to kill at work and you want to make a track to try out when you get home. |
| NEONswift Posts: 43/150 |
Originally posted by BGNGDon't agree with your statement. Im a longtime player of Fzero X and user of the expansion kit and even now with the complexity of editing 3d racing environments its still nearly impossible to judge it and this is even without taking into account the unpredictability of AI. With human judgement out the window this then leaves you with "Trial and Error" and the thing about trial and error is that you'll need the rom to actually test out the custom tracks or else you'll end up passing on a file amongst the community that could be flawed. This therefore means that the editor is rom-less but in order to create anything with more skill involved than the original Fzero X tracks will require the rom. Wouldnt this make it an editor that still requires the thing you claim it does not? My previous post and all my current questions were less related directly to your editor (although i was interested) but more on the impact of the rom not being there. Mr Guy who original made the thread on rom-less editors may have been asking a reasonable question and many replied unreasonably to him but if youd gone and told him youd released an F Zero X editor that didnt require any roms in the long run he still would have needed to get his hands on that ROM..legally or not. |
| Guy Perfect Posts: 85/451 |
The Expansion Kit nor my editor will let you test out a GP on a track, so drivability is mostly trial and error. Players of the game should be able to tell just by looking at it, however, if any turns are safe or not.
And as I said before: "Further comments on the F-Zero X editor that do not pertain specifically to ROM-less editing should go in this thread" |
| NEONswift Posts: 42/150 |
Originally posted by BGNG Clarification is always great and i thankyou. I also wait rather impatiently (as always) for the editors release - which im sure both the rom hacking and game modding communities alike are also doing. 
However something that is contained in the Expansion Kit on the 64dd has just been brought to mind. With the KIT being inbuilt you are given the ability to instantly test out your courses for unseen discrepancies like 30 racers all falling off at once around the second bend. I'm assuming that without the rom your editor will not be able to do this. Have you taken this into account and thought up alternatives if needed? |
| Guy Perfect Posts: 84/451 |
Those who will break the law will break the law. Using level editor software is not illegal; only using illegitimate copies of ROMs is illegal. But for those who do not wish to break the law, there should be no reason to force them to do so. Custom tracks in F-Zero X are available for both console and ROM-hacking editors, which means one portion of the people making tracks for this game may never have a use for the ROM whatsoever.
When closed-minded people start saying things like "there's absolutely no reason to make or use a ROM-less editor," they're completely throwing that non-ROM-using portion of the gaming population to the wind and ignoring their existence. That simply isn't approperiate in the gaming community. Just because they can't forsee anyone using an editor without an emulator at hand doesn't mean such activities don't exist. In fact, there are a few games out there that do have level editors. Other racing games like Excite Bike, F-Zero Climax, Hyper Sonic Extreme and Mach Rider all have level editors built into the retail game. As with any video game, the primary input is the controller, and designing courses with a controller on a small screen can be cumbersome at best, so using editors on a personal computer may be a more convenient way to do things. In fact, a guy by the handle CaitSyth2 made a Windows-based course creator for F-Zero Climax that encodes/decodes the passwords needed to transfer tracks to the game and to other people. If you don't want to go into the game, enter the lengthy password, then look at a track only to find out you don't like it, you can simply copy/paste the password into that program and see what it looks like. Time saver, hassle saver, happiness abounds. That's not much different from what I'm doing. The purpose of this thread is to provide sufficient evidence that there are very practical applications for ROM-less level editors. It's obvious that some people have not considered how such editors can be useful. The editor that I am creating has a double purpose. One is that it provides a standardized encoding for F-Zero X courses so people can transfer their tracks over the internet reliably and without forgetting to document any features. The other is that I am creating a game modding tool that can be used to patch courses to any retail F-Zero X ROM. |
| NEONswift Posts: 41/150 |
Size is a very good reason for not carrying around a ROM alongside the editor but are you confusing illegal restrictions with convenience of design. It all sounds a lot like fear instead of thought.
What we do IS illegal however you look at it. I wouldn't say in a immoral sense but rather the fact that Nintendo's lawyers deemed it so makes it that way. I've always been a little confused about the focus of this thread. Did you create it to comment on the lack of niceties between hackers or perhaps just to state that this simply isn't an unreasonable idea and it is possible to edit a game minus the ROM. All the points made by you and everyone here are viable when it comes to the reasons for romless editors but even you yourself state that this isn't something that would likely work with very many things...And thus so far only proven to be successful with F-Zero X. As in another thread the origins, reasons and need to call the scene "hacking" seems to directly relate to breaking this law made up by stupid guys in suits; whereas the reason PC game modding appears to be called what it is, is due to it being supported by creators. So what does this make your editor BGNG? Is it a ROM hacking editor or a piece of video game modding software that happens to also work with ROMs made only illegal if the user doesnt already own the existing title in physical form. I hope they do own F Zero X though cause it's a dam good game. |
| Guy Perfect Posts: 83/451 |
The primary ROM-less targets for my project, HyperHacker, are those with the F-Zero X Expansion Kit who want to transfer their courses to others such that they can be used universally. With a standardized track data format, the editor can do away with ambiguous, sloppy, self-made text files that are being used now.
If you had a fully-working, authentic level editor in one of your video games, would you be the first one to volunteer to illegally download 16MB of ROM data just to put your level in a format that everyone can use? |
| HyperHacker Posts: 846/5072 |
Originally posted by Gavin No, I'm afraid these don't seem practical at all. My post describes the problems with them already, but just for the hell of it let's go over them again. Storing everything outside of the ROM, and inserting it all at once: You can, but unless you plan to make everything from scratch and do at least some simple graphics before the levels, you're still going to need the ROM to extract these from, and if you want to test anything, you need to insert them anyway. (Like I said before.) A far more practical way to achieve this is to just edit one ROM, then once you're done, extract everything from it and insert it into a fresh copy. Professional game development: "You don't have ROMs" - not entirely true. First the programmers compile a working engine, which is basically a ROM without any actual levels or graphics (or simple dummy ones). From there, designing these is nearly identical to ROM hacking. The only difference is that the data is split up (each level generally has its own file) and documented, as opposed to being all lumped together with no documentation. Like I said before, you need a ROM to modify the existing resources. Creating your own consists of two things - creating them (not ROM hacking) and then editing them (same deal as ROM hacking, but editing the files before they're compiled instead of after.) Hopefully you can make sense of this as I know I tend to suck at explaining things.
Group hacking: Wrong wrong wrong. It would be convenient for the map designer (especially if he has minimal knowledge of ROM hacking, [...]), to have a level editor that just works, without the need for ROM and crap. An editor requiring a ROM shouldn't make it any more difficult to use than one that doesn't, unless the editor is poorly programmed. What's the difference? Instead of going to File -> New, making a level, and saving it to a file, you load an existing level from the ROM, make a new one, and save it over that one. Well-programmed editors such as Lunar Magic demonstrate how this process can be made almost identical to editing the levels without the ROM. Just pretend the editor can only save X amount of levels and automatically chooses their filenames. In this case the designer can just save levels on their HD with virtually no limitation, and the ability to trade the files to the project manager, for example. It's piss-easy for a ROM editor to be able to import and export the levels to external files. Even in a commercial game there's still limitations, the only difference is you can go bug the programmer to remove them instead of having to manually modify the compiled code. (And this isn't even true in all cases. Just because Nintendo made the games from scratch doesn't mean they could have 4000 sprites on the screen at once in SMB3 or whatever.) Being able to work on the hack when you don't have access to the ROM: Who the hell would take a copy of the editor with them and not the ROM? This is like saying you should be able to take your NES controllers with you on vacation, but leave the console behind, and still be able to play the games. So would it kill you to actually read the posts, and not just check the first sentence or two and assume it's wrong? |
| Xkeeper Posts: 990/5653 |
No. Allow me to clarify.
Not drama. Originally posted by Jigglysaint Drama. Originally posted by DischOriginally posted by NetSplit Note how one contributes to the topic where the other doesn't, aside from going off on a road leading directly to a flame war, ironically. Also, you missed part of my post, consider reading more throughly next time: "However, a well-written editor will check for these things, so the point ended up being moot regardless." I spefically point out that my points are only valid with not-so-well-written editors shortly afterward. |
| Gavin Posts: 102/181 |
Originally posted by HyperHacker You are pretty much totally wrong in everything you just said . And if you had read the post directly above your own, you would know that DJBouche pointed out some very good practical points to such an application, which I was unaware of before reading as well. But I mean... would it kill you to actually read the responses?? 
Originally posted by XkeeperOriginally posted by DJ Boucheway to be a champion! now if only more people did this instead of just creating more drama. dlkgadhsglkadjgs 1. Umm.. that's up to the programmer. As long as they actually test their application, why would this be an issue more than a romless editor?? 2. I don't understand what you're saying by that. Your main points seem to rest on having an inexperienced programmer or a rushed and untested project or something. Pretty much baseless claims that could be applied just as well to any other rom editor. (and ah, now I understand! asking board members to post intellectual, substantive responses to posts on the hacking board is considered "drama". Now I understand exactly why people like you have made this place what it is ) |
| Xkeeper Posts: 988/5653 |
Originally posted by DJ Boucheway to be a champion! now if only more people did this instead of just creating more drama. dlkgadhsglkadjgs Pretty much what he said, the only problem siwth ROMless editors are... 1. inability to make sure that the edited content works as planned 2. inability to plan exactly where something goes Essentially, if the game adheres to a very strict format, you could design a whole new game (in essence), only to find out only ~5% of the creations you made won't work without severe gutting (etc). However, a well-written editor will check for these things, so the point ended up being moot regardless. Great, I just spent ten minutes writing nothing useful. $pc++; Didn't Mario Improvement 3 have something like this, the Freeform Mode, anyway? That made creating levels easier... And, one last fun fact: it seems like most of the more experienced ROM hackers tend to use ROMless editors, judging from what I've been hearing in this thread. |
| HyperHacker Posts: 828/5072 |
It's certainly possible, but in most cases impractical. Consider your FZX editor. It can create courses without a ROM, sure, but you need one to test the created courses, modify existing ones, edit other things (vehicle stats perhaps; this could be done without a ROM, but it'd be difficult to work that way), and eventually you need to insert all the data into one anyway lest you simply have a lot of cool 3D shapes.
Graphics are one of the biggest issues. You can do it without a ROM but then you're stuck with the built-in graphics. If you make your own in the ROM, the editor still shows the old ones. Extracting them allows you to use them without the ROM, but you still need it to extract them in the first place. Most online editors, I imagine, just have a copy of the ROM on the server and modify it in memory. Assuming it was aquired legally, this should be legal because the ROM is never distributed. One final interesting note: There's some Tetris Attack editor that edits the levels right in ZSnes's memory. This can be considered ROMless as the editor doesn't need to ever access the ROM, but then the emulator still needs it. The biggest issue in this case is how the editor works. If it modifies the ROM stored in memory, then it's no different than a standard editor. If, on the other hand, it modifies the decoded level data in the emulated RAM (which I imagine it does), then it's quite different. It never needs to access the actual ROM and could theoretically edit a knock-off PC version using the same format, hence no ROM involved. |
| DJ Bouche Posts: 46/111 |
I'm just going to ignore the drama and get straight to the point that I've always seen ROM-less editing as a major advantage and a great feature. In fact for my private hacks I usually use something such as a ROM-less editor which uses an external format that gets converted to the internal ROM format upon insert. For me, it's ideal to design your part of the game totally outside of the ROM, and compile everything into the ROM when it's ready to go, which makes allocating space a one time thing and as optimised as possible..."ideal", as in not always possible, but I try to aim for that.
Believe it or not, in the professional world of game design, you don't have ROMs to do this shit (since it all compiles in one go later), and they rely on external resources for things such as level editors. Take this into consideration: A team of ROM hackers are putting up a ROM hacking project for F-Zero X. One person is working on graphics, one person is working on music, another on level editing. It would be convenient for the map designer (especially if he has minimal knowledge of ROM hacking, for example, but may have awesome F-Zero X Map ideas, or previous experience with non-emulation-related mapping), to have a level editor that just works, without the need for ROM and crap. In this case the designer can just save levels on their HD with virtually no limitation, and the ability to trade the files to the project manager, for example. Another simple example is if you are forced to go somewhere and need to work on a ROM hack. You don't have the particular ROM or a ROM you are working on, but that doesn't leave you unable to design maps for it. Then perhaps an ROM-less level editor would be the solution. Not only is the idea of ROM-less Editing "not unreasonable", but it is FAR from unreasonable. It makes the program more professional in design IMO. [not the best examples, but eh I tried ] |
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