Originally posted by Jesper

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(No, we can't keep the current one and assume everyone loves it. Ask Cuba if they're happy with what they've been stuck with for decades. Same logic.)

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Okay, but using this logic, you also can't force change on people and force them to love it, even if you truly believe that what you're doing is right and would help. Ask the people of Iraq if they're happy with the recent US occupation and government change. Same logic.

(NOTE: In all honesty, I don't know how the people of Iraq feel, as a whole, about it. But I keep reading that more and more of them would rather Saddam still ruled)

Seriously, what if you asked the board "Do you like Mark Forum Read where it is?" I bet most of the board would say "Yes", for a variety of reasons (Admittedly, muscle memory would probably be among them).

Now, as for suggestions, the first bar for normal users (Logout, edit Profile, etc.) seems to deal with personal control over the site, and the second (Main, Memberlist, etc.) deals with various non-personal functions. You've mentioned the additional row of stuff Admins have, which seems to be why this redesign is taking place in the first place. Keep in mind, though, that most users have no idea what this extra row is, or what that has to do with the design of the board. In all honesty, breaking it up as I've done, I don't see how "Mark Forum Read" was so glaringly out of place. I suppose with enough thought, I could break the links down into various functions and regroup them any of a number of different ways. Looking at it the way I just did, though, I don't see why it had to be moved. Particularly as you put it to "RSS Feed". I don't see the relation here at all, and to me it looks as though you put the RSS link there just so "mark forum read" wouldn't be lonely in its own row (Yes, I've read the rationale for moving it, but it just doesn't make sense to me. In this form, we may as well move the Color Chart down there too, as the only link I'm making is "Stuff that doesn't really fit anywhere else").

In short, I have two suggestions about the process in general: Ask about prospective changes before making them--as it is now, you sound as though you're determined to change it in some way, even if the entire board disagrees with you--or just go ahead and make one huge change, rather than doing it in steps--you mentioned wanting to avoid making it you were forcing "Your favorite layout" on people, but doing it in steps (And asking for feedback after the fact), it will still seem like you're forcing "Your favorite layout" on everyone, just in phases (Which is almost worse than doing it all-at-once, as you're now forcing multiple changes, instead of one big sweeping one).

Originally posted by Emptyeye

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Originally posted by Jesper

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(No, we can't keep the current one and assume everyone loves it. Ask Cuba if they're happy with what they've been stuck with for decades. Same logic.)

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Okay, but using this logic, you also can't force change on people and force them to love it, even if you truly believe that what you're doing is right and would help. Ask the people of Iraq if they're happy with the recent US occupation and government change. Same logic.

(NOTE: In all honesty, I don't know how the people of Iraq feel, as a whole, about it. But I keep reading that more and more of them would rather Saddam still ruled)

Seriously, what if you asked the board "Do you like Mark Forum Read where it is?" I bet most of the board would say "Yes", for a variety of reasons (Admittedly, muscle memory would probably be among them).

Now, as for suggestions, the first bar for normal users (Logout, edit Profile, etc.) seems to deal with personal control over the site, and the second (Main, Memberlist, etc.) deals with various non-personal functions. You've mentioned the additional row of stuff Admins have, which seems to be why this redesign is taking place in the first place.

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Originally posted by Emptyeye

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In all honesty, breaking it up as I've done, I don't see how "Mark Forum Read" was so glaringly out of place. I suppose with enough thought, I could break the links down into various functions and regroup them any of a number of different ways. Looking at it the way I just did, though, I don't see why it had to be moved. Particularly as you put it to "RSS Feed". I don't see the relation here at all, and to me it looks as though you put the RSS link there just so "mark forum read" wouldn't be lonely in its own row (Yes, I've read the rationale for moving it, but it just doesn't make sense to me. In this form, we may as well move the Color Chart down there too, as the only link I'm making is "Stuff that doesn't really fit anywhere else").

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Originally posted by Emptyeye

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In short, I have two suggestions about the process in general: Ask about prospective changes before making them--as it is now, you sound as though you're determined to change it in some way, even if the entire board disagrees with you--or just go ahead and make one huge change, rather than doing it in steps--you mentioned wanting to avoid making it you were forcing "Your favorite layout" on people, but doing it in steps (And asking for feedback after the fact), it will still seem like you're forcing "Your favorite layout" on everyone, just in phases (Which is almost worse than doing it all-at-once, as you're now forcing multiple changes, instead of one big sweeping one).

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Originally posted by Jesper

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First, like I've already noted earlier in this post, this was a test to see how people would react. I -am- determined to change it, because I firmly believe that there's something wrong with the menu. For the reasons that I've stated earlier in the thread, AND due to the fact that, again, the most recurring wish is a changed menu.

When before has the users of Acmlm's board decided on its own menu? Never. I don't see how this could be forcing anything upon people. Perhaps inactive people won't like it when they come back after months of inactivity, but we won't do this overnight either. It will be decided on during some time, because it'll take a long time to finalize this sucker, and it will be changed in a "big sweeping change", not incrementally.

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Wished by who, though? And is there really a good reason to change it besides "It hasn't been changed in awhile"? This seems to be where we disagree, as how you group the various choices (Where "Mark Forums Read" doesn't really fit) is different than how I group them (Where it fits fine). Nor am I seeing how moving stuff around (Or not) magically allows you to make changes to the board (I presume "new stuff" means new functionality, stuff we haven't seen yet)...if this is really the case, I would rather see the new functionality, then reevaluate the links to see if they can be grouped better taking this "new stuff" into account. Right now, though, I honestly don't see a better place for it (Maybe later I'll try various hypothetical groupings of what's there to see if I can come up with something) than where it is now.

Originally posted by Kitten Yiffer

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The thing that apparently pissed people off was the "changed without warning". People want to know about major changes before they happen...

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