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| 0 user currently in World Affairs / Debate. |
| Acmlm's Board - I2 Archive - World Affairs / Debate - The war in Iraq, for or against? |
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Read the title -_-| Durdurdur | For |
26.7%, 8 votes | Against |
73.3%, 22 votes | Multi-voting is disabled.
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windwaker Ball and Chain Trooper WHY ALL THE MAYONNAISE HATE Level: 61  Posts: 517/1797 EXP: 1860597 For next: 15999 Since: 03-15-04 Since last post: 4 days Last activity: 6 days |
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| Alright Leggy. I am against the war in iraq. I doubt anyone who's for it would start a thread like this  .First off, the president went to war based on inaccurate information. They didn't have WMDs. And then he lied about it. Here're a few I found off AlterNet. "We've learned that Iraq has trained al-Qaeda members in bomb-making and poisons and deadly gases ... Alliance with terrorists could allow the Iraqi regime to attack America without leaving any fingerprints." -- President Bush, Oct. 7 Is there basis for this statement? noooooooo "Yes, we found a biological laboratory in Iraq which the UN prohibited." -- President Bush in remarks in Poland, published internationally June 1, 2003. This was reference to the discovery of two modified truck trailers that the CIA claimed were potential mobile biological weapons lab. But British and American experts -- including the State Department's intelligence wing in a report released this week -- have since declared this to be untrue. According to the British, and much to Prime Minister Tony Blair's embarrassment, the trailers are actually exactly what Iraq said they were; facilities to fill weather balloons, sold to them by the British themselves. Debate me :|. Edit: oh shit, I accidently voted for XD. (edited by windwaker on 12-04-04 09:06 PM) |
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hhallahh Bob-Omb Level: 38  Posts: 453/607 EXP: 365476 For next: 4971 Since: 03-15-04 From: Portland, OR Since last post: 73 days Last activity: 60 days |
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| There are multiple ways of interpreting this question: 1. Knowing all the relevant facts now, whether we should have gone in to begin with... against. 2. Under the 2003 "Veil of Uncertainty", whether we should have gone in to begin with... closer call, but still probably against. 3. Knowing all the relevant facts now, and given that we're already there, whether we should continue to be there... for. |
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Tamarin Calanis We exist. Earth exists. The universe exists. Do we really need to know why? Level: 59 Posts: 182/1802 EXP: 1672751 For next: 377 Since: 07-12-04 From: The gas station on the corner... Since last post: 5 hours Last activity: 5 hours |
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| Clicked the wrong link, meant against. Still, though I'm against us being there, it's not exactly up to our soldiers to decide what wars we go to. So, despising Bush as much as I do, and being against this war as much as I am, I sitll think the soldiers we have there deserve our support. (edited by Cheveyo Chowilawu on 12-05-04 06:23 PM) |
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Tarale I'm not under the alfluence of incohol like some thinkle peop I am. It's just the drunker I sit here the longer I get.  Level: 73  Posts: 845/2720 EXP: 3458036 For next: 27832 Since: 03-18-04 From: Adelaide, Australia Since last post: 4 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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| Against. And I actually voted that way too I was at the protests here in Adelaide too back then. |
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MathOnNapkins Math n' Hacks Level: 67  Posts: 1105/2189 EXP: 2495887 For next: 96985 Since: 03-18-04 From: Base Tourian Since last post: 1 hour Last activity: 32 min. |
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| I voted against, but for a different reason. If we had gone into this was under the pretext that Saddam is an asshole, let's get rid of him, I'd have no problem with it. But the fact that the government had to make it seem like an imminent danger was looming in Iraq insults the intelligence of me and my countrymen. Also, the timing is unfortunate. We should have done this years ago. I liked Clinton, but he should have kicked Saddam's ass in this fashion, rather than firing missiles at him. I've done a bit of reading on both sides of the issue, but I still don't really think Saddam was a major contributor to our problems with terrorism. I mainly would have wanted to see him go on the basis that he's a heartless dictator psycho. As long as we can find a way to make Iraq a peaceful, sovereign nation that isn't run by wacko nutjobs, it will have a positive impact in the long run in making better relations with the Middle East. That said, it is obviously an extremely difficult thing to do. If we pull out too quickly, religious fanatics and extremists will take over. But if we stay too long, it will look as though we are trying to form a puppet state. (Which is probably the plan but hey I can give the benefit of the doubt.) |
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Legion banning people for no reason sure is fun Level: 101  Posts: 3162/5657 EXP: 10399737 For next: 317938 Since: 03-15-04 From: The Crossroads is under attack! Since last post: 5 days Last activity: 5 days |
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| Against. Because I'm a trendy whore who doesn't want to go against popular opinion. So I base all my "evidence" on unreliable sources and Radiohead. Pssh. As being an airman in the best military in the world (here come the whines!), there are certain things that I understand that you can simply not as being a civilian. You don't see things from the same perspective as I do. If you're not going to school, you're doing other regular day to day activities. You get all your information from the news which as we know is not a very reliable source and is often taiilored to accustom certain viewpoints. Now I know this is going to piss off a lot of people here, but unless you're actually IN your countries military or have ANYTHING to do with this, you really have no grounds to discuss it. Were you in the war? Probably not. But I was and I went to many intel debriefings. It's makes me mad to think that there are still people out there who think that Iraq had no WMD's or did not have a system where they were actively producing/researching them for future use. Sadaam made statements all the time in the past 10 years that he was doing it and/or was planning to. If he had nothing to hide, then why tell all the inspectors over the past several years that they couldn't come in and inspect? Come on now, put two and two together. He was kicking the UN out for YEARS. Did we forget all that? He had something there, but he was too quick and they were all shipped to Iran and Syria. We have sattelite photos documenting several trucks transporting from Iraq to both Iran and Syria just days before the war. Goly gee willickers, it couldn't have been incriminating evidence could it? Naw, it must have been shipments of ice cream!  At least thats what your favorite band probably said... Remember when the reports that there weren't any WMD's came out? I bet you neglect to recall that even though they didn't find any, they did find much evidence of programs, tracking lists, intel, supplies and other things that pointed directly that they were indeed hiding this stuff in Syria. There was also evidence that Sadaam was planning on starting up his nuke program again. Iraqi scientists had let us in on that info, showing us several nuclear components that they were told to hide by Sadaam himself. With this war, we inadvertantly prevented a nuclear crisis that could have happened in about 10-15 years from now. But of course, you guys think that's a bad thing don't you? Your values are beyond screwed up.  Also, even if it weren't for that, it was still a good thing. Let me ask you something. Have you ever lived under a tyrannical dictatorship before? No? I didn't think so. Neither have I, but I would IMAGINE that it's not a walk in the fucking park. Hey hey, guess what? If America was a dictatorship and you lived here and said the same things you do about Bush now, you'd get a nice bullet in the brain. Quite possibly your family too. Guess what? That doesn't happen with democracy. You can ramble on all you want about how Bush is this and that no matter how extreme you take it. I get the impression that some of you would rather have a dictatorship. Trust me, I wish it upon you so that you may see the error of your ways. Actually, I don't. I'm not THAT horrible of a person. What we gave Iraq and it's people, despite all the death and destruction, is nothing short of a miracle. Sure there are people who reject us, but you'll always have people who don't accept change, especially one as big as this. However, there is the other side of the spectrum as well. Many people are now living a life that they, at one point, could only dream of. I can NOT fathom why anyone would think that the war in Iraq was not justified. Are you people really that cold and heartless? Where are your morals? Why are they so screwed up and selfish? It's people like you who really make me realize that this world is a sick and twisted place. God forbid any one of you make it to power in your respective countries. Then you'll be responsible for letting some mad man off the hook only so he can take over a good chunk of your lands, and then what? Naw, that wouldn't happen? Why? Because we're here to clean up the mess of the world. We take a lot of shit for it, but that's how it goes. I'll say it again, America is the Spiderman of the world and the rest of it is like Jameson. I know it sounds corny to use a comic book character as a reference, but that's EXACTLY how it is with this world. And on a side note, how exactly did the war affect you anyway? Did YOU go out there and fight in it? Hmmm, no...no I don't think you did. In fact, I'm pretty sure you had nothing to do with it at all. Who here has parents or brothers and sisters who died in the war? Anyone? Anyone at all? If not, then I ask again. How did it personally affect you? One last note, quit saying Bush is a war criminal because we didn't have UN approval. In case you didn't know, we have permanent veto power. So stick it. The UN used to be a great thing, but it's now a bunch of people who sit around and do nothing. There, I've said my peace. Feel free to spurt your political rhetoric that gives me a headache to read or rant on about how making the world a better and safer place is SOOOoooooOOOOooo evil. Oh, and you're welcome. |
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Sandy53215 Acmlm (10:55:31 PM): they're having fun for the first time in so long Level: 47  Posts: 229/948 EXP: 713034 For next: 53169 Since: 03-15-04 From: Milwaukee, Wisconsin (U.S.A) Since last post: 1 day Last activity: 4 hours |
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| Wow, I dont even know how to comment on this one. Legion pretty muched summed everything up in a long but very true way. I didnt loose anyone from the war. I dont hate Bush, I just dont like some of the things he does. The war is not one of them. I think he is doing fine with that. I also agree with Cheveyo on one thing... Even if you are against Bush, support our troops. Imagine you being over there hearing from family members that so many people are against this and all. Do you think that gives them support or encouragment? No it doesnt. I think it takes a lot of people to build power into our men and woman over there. So even if you are against Bush they deserve your support. God Legion you summed it up so well.  |
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geeogree Bloober Level: 34  Posts: 204/448 EXP: 231583 For next: 22068 Since: 03-16-04 From: Calgary, Canada Since last post: 1 day Last activity: 11 hours |
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| the thing I love.... is that people believe whatever they are told.... whether it is by the guy on the news.... some guy in an anti whatever book, or the president... yet, we none of us really know for sure....we all think we do.... and so many people say they do.... but really, none of us do.... no one likes war.... but, Bush has done a service to the world, by taking out Saddam, whether people agree with how he went about it.... he still did a good thing |
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hhallahh Bob-Omb Level: 38 Posts: 456/607 EXP: 365476 For next: 4971 Since: 03-15-04 From: Portland, OR Since last post: 73 days Last activity: 60 days |
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Originally posted by |+Legion+| Haha, what? You talk like it's still May 2003. Word: It's December 2004, the amount of "WMD" we've found is negligible, and even if it were true that Saddam had WMD (of which no real evidence exists, sorry.. you think Bush wouldn't be saying it did every week if it did?), then the fact that it's all in Iran and Syria now means we seriously fucked up. Despite all the pissing that can be done back and forth on the issue, let's let the evidence stand for itself: Nothing. Yes, perhaps there was a desire for Saddam to get WMD. However, we didn't go to war based on Saddam's distant desires. If a war was necessary, it wasn't in Iraq. Originally posted by |+Legion+| Hm, well, in utilitarian terms, we could've done much better in terms of helping people out then going into Iraq. I mean, look at Sudan or Africa or whatever. Imagine what $200 billion could have done for the places there. In other words, the "they're better off" argument is just a bunch of bullshit that conservatives fall back on when they realize they've been screwed. And yes.. I'm "that cold and heartless". I don't think my tax dollars should be going to help other people overseas. Originally posted by |+Legion+| Again, tax dollars. No one should have to pay for such a useless adventure. And no, I really don't believe that I'd be living in a post-apocalyptic wasteland if it wasn't for the valiant actions of our great soldiers. Also, I'm pretty sure you could tie the war to Bush's re-election. Which is just a damn shame, because that's gonna create a whole lot of problems which personally affect all of us. (edited by hhallahh on 12-05-04 02:30 AM) |
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windwaker Ball and Chain Trooper WHY ALL THE MAYONNAISE HATE Level: 61 Posts: 521/1797 EXP: 1860597 For next: 15999 Since: 03-15-04 Since last post: 4 days Last activity: 6 days |
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| I think he is doing fine with that. Saddam was an asshole. You're right =). BUT, we killed over 100,000 civilians in the process. And based on innacurate info. Against. Because I'm a trendy whore who doesn't want to go against popular opinion. So I base all my "evidence" on unreliable sources and Radiohead. You have no reason to discredit my sources, except for the fact that they go against your opinion. unless you're actually IN your countries military or have ANYTHING to do with this, you really have no grounds to discuss it. So, how've things been in Iraq lately, Leg?  How can you say that? We're arguing this from a political standpoint. I doubt soldiers in Iraq know any more or less than we do about why they went there. He had something there, but he was too quick and they were all shipped to Iran and Syria. We have sattelite photos documenting several trucks transporting from Iraq to both Iran and Syria just days before the war. How come I didn't hear about this before? And where's your proof, and why haven't we found them by now if we know where they are? Believe me, if the republicans knew this had happened, they would have made it known. With this war, we inadvertantly prevented a nuclear crisis that could have happened in about 10-15 years from now. But of course, you guys think that's a bad thing don't you? Yeah man, totally. Like wite said, all they'd have to do is sneak the building large WMDs into an airport, get the plane to the US, and blow us up. Them being too far away from us to attack us directly, that is. Even if they did they'd be nuked by us and/or another country within hours . |
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Kario In Possession of a Stolen Shovel Level: 65 Posts: 859/2082 EXP: 2321379 For next: 14249 Since: 03-15-04 From: Texas... Yeehaw! Since last post: 2 days Last activity: 17 hours |
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| I voted for. Why? Well I agree with why we went over there. Sure there were no WMDs, but he never said there was. It was according to CIA intelligence that there was potential for WMD's there, and there was. Our ultimate goal was to get Suddam out in the first place, because he was the one ordering that WMDs should be manufactured sometime in the future, he needed to get out of power. Besides all that, the declaration of independence told us we should. | |||
Apple Kodondo Level: 38 Posts: 557/594 EXP: 350163 For next: 20284 Since: 03-27-04 From: Washington. Since last post: 264 days Last activity: 152 days |
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Originally posted by |+Legion+| Its not really because they can't accept change or because they support dictatorship (I'm sure theres several who are that way though) but because we are on their land. Take World War II for example. When the Allies marched in to Germany, alot of German's supported us and basically welcomed us with open arms but once the war ended and they saw that we were still in their country, did they still welcome us? No, they started to turn against us and they eventually turned hostile. If Germany wasn't bombed for 4 straight years and the people weren't tired of fighting, I'm sure it would of turned out alot like Iraq currently is. Either way, It doesn't take a rocket sciencist to see how much America has improved life for both the Afgani's and the Iraqi's. More so for the Afgani's but we had more time to fix things up there and I'm not sure but I think Afgainstan is starting to be ran by the Afgan people again. Iraq will follow suit, just wait a few more years. Did I support the war? Yes. Saddam needed to be removed and there wasn't anyone better than America to do it quite honestly. I'm not sure about how the Middle East is today but I know that in the late 1980's and early 1990's the two most powerful nations were Iraq and Iran. Two countries who disliked one another and balanced each other's power. Removing Saddam in 1991 would of tipped the balance to Iran's favor. Bleh. Originally posted by windwaker Attacking America doesn't really mean attacking our country's soil. Odd's are if Saddam had WMD's and used them against America it would be against our miltary bases in the middle east. Killing American lives, blowing up American buildings. ATTACKING AMERICA. Besides, if we were nuked by Saddam, we couldn't just turn around and nuke them back, its more complicated than that. You can't avenge a few thousand miltary lives by blowing up a fucking country and expect the world to just nod their head and applud you for it. And besides, if Saddam did have nukes, he would most likely use it on every-muslim's favourite country (Iseral). (edited by Apple on 12-05-04 03:23 AM) |
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Mel (USER WAS TOTALLY AWESOME FOR THIS POST) Level: 47  Posts: 634/991 EXP: 762490 For next: 3713 Since: 03-15-04 From: secure tripcodes are for jerks Since last post: 17 min. Last activity: 16 min. |
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Originally posted by |+Legion+| I'd like to note that the White House itself wrote press releases stating that Iraq never had any WMD's to begin with. sry |
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Grey the Stampede Don't mess with powers you don't understand. And yes. That means donuts. Level: 82  Posts: 1378/3770 EXP: 5192909 For next: 16318 Since: 06-17-04 From: Kingston, RI, USA, Earth Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 1 hour |
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| I'm just waiting for someone to spew out a Halliburton/Oil Tycoon argument... | |||
DurfarC Beezo Level: 33 Posts: 201/483 EXP: 218551 For next: 10628 Since: 09-04-04 From: Norway Since last post: 20 days Last activity: 12 hours |
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| I was for when it started, but when I saw the people and casualities that were lost, I changed my mind somehow. But it's too late to leave now. Actually, this doesn't really bother me, Norway isn't taking part in Iraq at all. |
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windwaker Ball and Chain Trooper WHY ALL THE MAYONNAISE HATE Level: 61 Posts: 524/1797 EXP: 1860597 For next: 15999 Since: 03-15-04 Since last post: 4 days Last activity: 6 days |
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| Sure there were no WMDs, but he never said there was. Uhh, yes he did. It's makes me mad to think that there are still people out there who think that Iraq had no WMD's. lol. |
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Colleen Administrator Level: 136 Posts: 5415/11302 EXP: 29369328 For next: 727587 Since: 03-15-04 From: LaSalle, Quebec, Canada Since last post: 3 hours Last activity: 1 hour |
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| Canada's smart, we stay away from stuff like this. I agree with getting rid of Saddam but disagree with everything else. My main concern now is that the Americans are in there, they can't leave because of all the insurgents, and they're still losing lives in there. I don't think they had this in mind as the "likely" scenario when all was said and done. |
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alte Hexe Star Mario I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night Alive as you and me "But Joe you're ten years dead!" "I never died" said he "I never died!" said he Level: 99  Posts: 1860/5458 EXP: 9854489 For next: 145511 Since: 03-15-04 From: ... Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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| Well, I'd like to add that all WMDs that Saddam had, as well as the programs were given to him by America during the Iraq-Iran war. This includes the gas he used on the Kurds. As for the war. How can anyone be for war? How can anyone be for spilling blood, killing, maiming and commiting atrocities? |
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hhallahh Bob-Omb Level: 38 Posts: 457/607 EXP: 365476 For next: 4971 Since: 03-15-04 From: Portland, OR Since last post: 73 days Last activity: 60 days |
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Originally posted by Ziffski Hmm... self-interest, perhaps? Yea, that works. For the greater good? That works too. Originally posted by Colleen No, you let others do it for you. ;D Which, granted, is somewhat smart. (edited by hhallahh on 12-06-04 01:44 AM) |
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kiwibonga Double metal axe Level: 27  Posts: 246/266 EXP: 106040 For next: 10119 Since: 03-15-04 From: Montreal, QC, Canada Since last post: 126 days Last activity: 3 days |
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| I say kill all the iraqis!! They are dangerous to our freedom! FREEDOM FRIES LOL |
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| Acmlm's Board - I2 Archive - World Affairs / Debate - The war in Iraq, for or against? |
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