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2 users currently in General Chat:  Dark Vampriel |
| Acmlm's Board - I2 Archive - General Chat - Your Thoughts On The European Union |
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Where do you stand?| Pick the option best suited for you, there are plenty of them. :P | My country is in both the EU and the EMU, and I like it that way |
17.4%, 4 votes | My country is in both the EU and the EMU, but I dislike the EMU |
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0.0%, 0 vote | My country is in both the EU and the EMU, but I dislike both |
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0.0%, 0 vote | My country is in the EU, not the EMU, and I want us to be a part of the EMU |
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0.0%, 0 vote | My country is in the EU, not the EMU, and I like it that way |
26.1%, 6 votes | My country is in the EU, not the EMU, and I dislike both |
8.7%, 2 votes | My country is European, but not in the EU, and I want us to join both the EU and the EMU |
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0.0%, 0 vote | My country is European, but not in the EU, and I want us to join the EU, but not the EMU (*) |
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0.0%, 0 vote | My country is European, but not in the EU, and I like it that way |
17.4%, 4 votes | I am from the US, and I see the EU as the US's most important ally and trade-partner |
13.0%, 3 votes | I am from the US, and I fear that the EU will surpass the US in global importance |
4.3%, 1 vote | I am from the US, and I see the EU as "unimportant" |
8.7%, 2 votes | I am neither from Europe nor the US, and I believe the EU will become the next global superpower |
4.3%, 1 vote | I am neither from Europe nor the US, and I do not believe the EU will surpass the US in global importance |
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0.0%, 0 vote | Multi-voting is disabled.
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The SomerZ Summer, yay! Level: 45  Posts: 546/862 EXP: 618182 For next: 41982 Since: 03-15-04 From: Norway Since last post: 2 days Last activity: 3 hours |
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Originally posted by hhallahh The system of elections in Sweden makes it possible for substantial minorities with radical opinions from all parts of the political spectrum to be heard, the system of elections in the US ensures that only the mainstream majority of the two biggest fractions of the political spectrums have a say. I disagree with a "man tax" just as much as you, but I respect democracy, and I respect the people holding these opinions's right to vent them in a political forum, especially if a significant enough percentage of the people feel they are the best suited to represent them in the Parliament. You could make an argument that they shouldn't be allowed to have a say, I respect that, too, of course (I'm no hypocrite), but what you are making an argument for is restrictions on democracy, and I don't believe that is the right way to go, so I disagree with you when you say "it's hard to respect societies that would seriously consider a "man tax"", since what you're saying is that it's hard to respect societies that allow open, democratic fora. And, no, the EU would not provide troops for Iran if the US invaded. However, I believe the EU can make for a more just world. As one man stated at the seminar titled "USA vs. EU" I was just at, when you have to have the consensus of 25 countries before deciding to have a military intervention in a country, it is more likely that that military intervention will be carried out in the interest of human rights, not in the self-interest of one single country. The EU will never attack the US, or have a conflict with the US, however, I believe the EU can steer the world in a more democratic, human rights-oriented direction. That's how the EU will balance the US. |
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hhallahh Bob-Omb Level: 38  Posts: 369/607 EXP: 365476 For next: 4971 Since: 03-15-04 From: Portland, OR Since last post: 73 days Last activity: 60 days |
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| I was only aware of the "man tax" because a Swedish person at another forum said that the government was "seriously considering this". If he's incorrect, apologies. Of course. As Charles du Gaulle (I believe) said, "Nations don't have alliances, only interests." And as Thrasymacus said in Plato's Republic, "Justice is the advantage of the stronger."  The United States technically represents the consensus of 50 states.. or, at least, the majoritarian will. I haven't read the EU Constitution closely enough to know, but I don't believe it has power of the military of individual states yet, does it? If the EU is really so interested in human rights, why was it opposed to the Iraq war? Was Saddam not a consistant violator of human rights? Is the fact that the United States was acting in its "own self-interest" such a terrible thing that we don't deserve help? Or perhaps the EU is more interested in letting the USA deal with its own mess than the welfare of the Iraqi people?Like it or not, the United States has created two democracies in the past 3 years.. sure, they're not the most functional democracies on Earth, but to imply that the EU is somehow the organization that will promote democracy and human rights (as opposed to the US) either means that you're talking about sometime in the future that's definately not a given, or that you're implying the words speak louder than actions. |
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Boom.dk Level: 31  Posts: 93/392 EXP: 168692 For next: 16671 Since: 07-18-04 From: Denmark Since last post: 10 days Last activity: 1 day |
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| Well... Better vote then... ^^ | |||
Arwon Zora Level: 35  Posts: 161/506 EXP: 278115 For next: 1821 Since: 03-15-04 From: Terra Australis Incognita Since last post: 5 hours Last activity: 10 min. |
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| "If the EU is really so interested in human rights, why was it opposed to the Iraq war? Was Saddam not a consistant violator of human rights? Is the fact that the United States was acting in its "own self-interest" such a terrible thing that we don't deserve help? Or perhaps the EU is more interested in letting the USA deal with its own mess than the welfare of the Iraqi people?" *NRRRRT* *TWITCH* But the... and... wha... zuh. Humanitarian motives were an incidental thing that made this ideological and political war easier to swallow. Otherwise the US would have invaded a place like Sudan instead. Burma? Congo? Zimbabwe? Uzbekistan? Fix all those places then we'll talk about altruism and humanitarian motives. Until then, poses of being the world's sole defender and promoter of freedom and democracy look awfully hollow and opportunistic. As for why the EU doesn't get involved with things now... I suppose they probably view it as being a political point-scoring opportunity for Bush after the damage-headed, belligerent way he and his government carried on before during and after the invasion ("see, nyah! we was right! woulf be the haughty cry). Additionally it would be a damaging domestic political move for member countries (never underestimate the degree of antipathy felt towards Bush in other parts of the world and how giving him any concessions looks like lackeydom). Then there's the simple fact that they'd most likely view involvement there as time, money and lives wasted - that it's a lost cause already, messed up beyond repair. Sending troops and companies and money into an active civil war (let's call a spade a spade here) is usually not a wise move. Also, it was America's (and Britain and Australia's) war, and trying to palm off the blame now on the EU, as some are seeming to do, is absolutely absurd. That's like blaming the countries that did't get involved in Vietnam (the UK for example) for what happened there. "Like it or not, the United States has created two democracies in the past 3 years.. sure, they're not the most functional democracies on Earth, but to imply that the EU is somehow the organization that will promote democracy and human rights (as opposed to the US) either means that you're talking about sometime in the future that's definately not a given, or that you're implying the words speak louder than actions." Well they're doing okay in Eastern Europe, eh? Sure it's the subtler "carrot" approach to America's "stick" but you can't really claim the EU hasn't had and isn't having results. (edited by Arwon on 10-08-04 04:38 AM) (edited by Arwon on 10-08-04 04:42 AM) |
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hhallahh Bob-Omb Level: 38 Posts: 372/607 EXP: 365476 For next: 4971 Since: 03-15-04 From: Portland, OR Since last post: 73 days Last activity: 60 days |
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| Humanitarian motives were an incidental thing that made this ideological and political war easier to swallow. Otherwise the US would have invaded a place like Sudan instead. No disagreement. My point is merely that if "humanitarian aims" were such a lofty priority of the EU, why couldn't they put aside whatever point they want to make to the US and realize that they shouldn't play with the fate of an entire nation? Obviously, other considerations are at play. You so much as concede this point. Unfortunately, as was the case in Afghanistan about a year ago, I think Iraq will be stabilized eventually, and then the EU (or their constituent nations) will look petty. I could be wrong, I could be right.. that's something speculative and not worth fighting over so much, since the point I intended to make wasn't contended. |
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Arwon Zora Level: 35 Posts: 164/506 EXP: 278115 For next: 1821 Since: 03-15-04 From: Terra Australis Incognita Since last post: 5 hours Last activity: 10 min. |
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| "As bad as each other but in different ways" works fine for me. On a tangential note... any arguments with my assertion that Iraq is now in civil war? |
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hhallahh Bob-Omb Level: 38 Posts: 374/607 EXP: 365476 For next: 4971 Since: 03-15-04 From: Portland, OR Since last post: 73 days Last activity: 60 days |
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| Depends on your definition of civil war, of course. Small, disjoint, hard-to-eradicate armies and militias? Yes. Much more than that? No. | |||
random Goomba Level: 10 Posts: 30/32 EXP: 3871 For next: 543 Since: 08-02-04 From: Eastern Deathville Since last post: 387 days Last activity: 276 days |
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Originally posted by hhallahhOriginally posted by randomOriginally posted by hhallahh Arwon answered the anti-fun question, but I was more nudging towards the currently Bible moral based party that's in power which creates these sort of people, as for anit-respect deal, the USA is still merely masquerading as mosaic. Or does the USA still openly promote the melting pot philosophy? |
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| Acmlm's Board - I2 Archive - General Chat - Your Thoughts On The European Union |
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