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| Acmlm's Board - I2 Archive - General Chat - SWEDEN > AMERICA! |
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What do you think after reading this? Is Sweden or America a better place to live?| Sweden |
70.2%, 33 votes | America |
29.8%, 14 votes | Multi-voting is disabled.
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The SomerZ Summer, yay! Level: 45  Posts: 521/862 EXP: 618182 For next: 41982 Since: 03-15-04 From: Norway Since last post: 2 days Last activity: 3 hours |
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| About the suicide rate. Read up on (edited by The SomerZ on 09-08-04 08:14 AM) |
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Ran-chan Moldorm eek, when are they going to stop growing... Level: 143  Posts: 3377/12781 EXP: 35293588 For next: 538220 Since: 03-15-04 From: Nerima District, Tokyo - Japan Since last post: 12 hours Last activity: 12 hours |
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Originally posted by Jesper No...I |
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Jesper Busy, busy, busy. Level: 69  Posts: 878/2390 EXP: 2856000 For next: 13743 Since: 03-15-04 From: Sweden. Since last post: 176 days Last activity: 79 days |
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Originally posted by Mileena SuckOriginally posted by Jesper |
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Kitten Yiffer Purple wand Furry moderator Vivent l'exp����¯�¿�½������©rience de signalisation d'amusement, ou bien ! Level: 135 Posts: 4826/11162 EXP: 28824106 For next: 510899 Since: 03-15-04 From: Sweden Since last post: 3 hours Last activity: 4 min. |
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Tv3 and Kanal 5 is still worser than TV4, TV4 is nothing.  ...and yeah that news thing was annoying.  But SVT1 and SVT2 is commercial free.  Jizuko: Yep, and I smile each time I see someone saying "I be right back" in US tv shows here. |
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Ran-chan Moldorm eek, when are they going to stop growing... Level: 143 Posts: 3380/12781 EXP: 35293588 For next: 538220 Since: 03-15-04 From: Nerima District, Tokyo - Japan Since last post: 12 hours Last activity: 12 hours |
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| WHY did the Scream movies pop up in my head when you said "I be right back", Kitten Yiffer? I still think that TV4 commercials are annoying... |
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knuck Hinox Banned until 19-58-5815: trolling, flaming, spamming, being a general fucktard... Level: 62 Posts: 717/1818 EXP: 1894574 For next: 90112 Since: 03-15-04 Since last post: 14 hours Last activity: 9 hours |
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| What is good in Sweden: -best internet connection ever -awesome girls That's enough for me.  *votes* |
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Simon Koopa Level: 19  Posts: 12/115 EXP: 30045 For next: 5732 Since: 03-18-04 From: Sweden Since last post: 1 day Last activity: 7 hours |
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| Guess what I voted for Anyway, Sweden has a much lower crime rate than the US, probably mostly because not any one can buy or carry weapons as they please here. Another thing I like about Sweden is the way most of us treat celebrities, we leave them alone like normal people, here any one can go to the grosery store without beeing run over by people asking about autographs or a picture just because they've got their face on tv a lot or because they're great musicians. |
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Kefka Indefinitely Unbanned Level: 81 Posts: 2273/3392 EXP: 4826208 For next: 166641 Since: 03-15-04 From: Pomona, CALIFORNIA BABY! Since last post: 4 hours Last activity: 4 hours |
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Originally posted by Kirby ATW Because I was talking to Kitten Yiffer when I decided to make this topic, and not anyone else from other countries. And about defense... which has been argued against Sweden in this topic... Who the hell attacks Sweden, ever? |
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hhallahh Bob-Omb Level: 38  Posts: 338/607 EXP: 365476 For next: 4971 Since: 03-15-04 From: Portland, OR Since last post: 73 days Last activity: 60 days |
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| Trading economic freedom (the right to own what you earn) for "equal opportunity" is not only unjust, but is economically undesirable as well. I'm gonna skip out the full explanation unless someone really tears into me like an idiot, at which point I'll have to explain such concepts as "supply and demand" and "liberty" that socialists seem to have no real conception of. I'm too lazy to read over the entire thread, so I'll point out one mistake I noticed thus far: You could say that poverty will, to a certain extent, function as protection from suicide. Or: The richer a society is, the higher its level of suicides will be. (By the by, anomie could go the other way, too. If a society undergoes sudden economical worsenings, it will then, too, experience a rise in suicides.) Economic change leads to suicide.. either for the better or worse. I'm thinking you simply misspoke when you said a rich society has a higher suicide rate, because your next paragraph conveys the correct idea. (edited by hhallahh on 09-09-04 01:06 AM) |
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The SomerZ Summer, yay! Level: 45 Posts: 523/862 EXP: 618182 For next: 41982 Since: 03-15-04 From: Norway Since last post: 2 days Last activity: 3 hours |
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| hhallahh: That was what I was trying to say, but I formulated myself quite badly. Economic stability, including poverty, will keep suicide rates down, and, well, I don't think I need to explain, you probably knew what I was trying to say... And you obviously don't know the system in Scandinavia. Welfare Capitalism is a mix of Free-Market and Government Control, so we do not remove economic freedom, it still exists. You should look up on the term Social Democracy (see the section about what contemporary social democrats support). Also, as a believer in Socialism/Social Democracy (Neither of which is the same as communism), I do not agree with your beliefs that equal opportunity is unjust. A system where smart people will get no chance of doing good, only because their parents are poor, that is an unjust system. Remember, you cannot have true liberty without equality. |
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hhallahh Bob-Omb Level: 38 Posts: 340/607 EXP: 365476 For next: 4971 Since: 03-15-04 From: Portland, OR Since last post: 73 days Last activity: 60 days |
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| A mix of the free-market and government control is an ideological mix of oil and water.. the philosophies behind the two systems are inherantly contradictary. While it is, of course, possible to have such a system, it's a philosophically convoluted one, based on the subjective weighing of the intuitionist morality of the dominanat political group. Also, as a believer in Socialism/Social Democracy (Neither of which is the same as communism), I do not agree with your beliefs that equal opportunity is unjust. A system where smart people will get no chance of doing good, only because their parents are poor, that is an unjust system. Remember, you cannot have true liberty without equality. A system where smart people do poorly simply because they're poor isn't an unjust system.. it's an inefficient one. A properly coordinated free market should be able to resolve these issues. It's not equal opportunity I'd gripe at in a Social Democracy - although I would say that stealing money and giving it to others for the sake of "justice" is an obviously unjust act - it's the bleeding-heart liberalism behind such notions as free health care, pensions, etc. wherein you end up paying vast sums of money to support the deadweight of society. The welfare state should exist insofar as it's an economically efficient thing to have, and Social Democracies generally go way beyond this threshold. And just out of curiousity, what are the immigration statistics on Sweden? Are they as troubling as the rest of Europe? I know that one cause of the dismantling of welfare states across Europe has been that people would come and sponge off of them... what a surprise! |
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Arwon Zora Level: 35  Posts: 122/506 EXP: 278115 For next: 1821 Since: 03-15-04 From: Terra Australis Incognita Since last post: 5 hours Last activity: 10 min. |
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| Um, Americans pay more per capita for healthcare and health insurance than every other wealthy country in the world... And, that "mix" is not a mix of oil and water... it's reality. Everywhere. Countries just get the ratios a little different. And finally, be very careful with the word "liberalism" because in Europe a "liberal" is either a centrist, a libertarian type, or a right-of-centre type or someting of a nexus of the three. They're generally pretty big on free markets. More like classical liberalism. (edited by Arwon on 09-09-04 11:49 AM) (edited by Arwon on 09-09-04 11:52 AM) |
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hhallahh Bob-Omb Level: 38 Posts: 342/607 EXP: 365476 For next: 4971 Since: 03-15-04 From: Portland, OR Since last post: 73 days Last activity: 60 days |
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Originally posted by Arwon Health care isn't my strongest area of expertise, but I will say that a vast sum of the money spent on health care here goes to the purpose of basic research, which you Social Democrats should be very thankful for. I do believe, though, that there's a somewhat.. symbiotic relationship between government and pharmaceutical (sp) companies in America, though, which accounts for their ridiculous profit margins. I'm not sure how to deal with that. There's a great deal of skepticism over whether the state health care system in America serves the people or the corporations.. and I'll grant that socialistic states are much better at creating systems in favor of the people. However, I would simply advocate abolishing (or phasing out) the state healthcare system, therefore lowering expenses on health care, because people would simply die, like they used to in the old days. (And before the inevitable complaints about a massive health care crisis ensue, keep in mind that there's such a thing as health insurance, which is a very good investment and will exist regardless of government policy.) And the mix is oil and water, largely because the socialist and capitalist philosophies are completely incompatible. If you have a country private property, political rights, and a free market (as the liberal capital philosophy entails), then this is incompatible with the welfare state. Period. The welfare state is a moral system based on giving welfare for the sake of giving welfare... you might as well be forcing people to pay money into the state's favorite church, that's about as much freedom as you have. And I suppose I'll use liberal in the 19th-century sense, then. I prefer doing that anyways. (edited by hhallahh on 09-09-04 12:09 PM) (edited by hhallahh on 09-09-04 12:10 PM) |
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Arwon Zora Level: 35 Posts: 123/506 EXP: 278115 For next: 1821 Since: 03-15-04 From: Terra Australis Incognita Since last post: 5 hours Last activity: 10 min. |
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| What do you mean "you" social democrats? I'm Australian! We don't have a social democrat party! Now, health care. As you have pointed out, healthcare in the US is pretty inextricably linked to the massive sums of money the US govenrment provides for research and such. Given this, why not simply admit that America's health care system has heavy state influence like the rest of ours, taxpayers are footing the bill, and stop pretending like it's a free market? Maybe then with this admission, the govenrment could actually have some control to go along with its funding, there'd be more of a focus on the end user and better care for the average patient? And lower costs. ...and yes, as you point out, health insurance exists anyway. But you know what? 40% of Americans don't have it. Do you know how many Australians lack health insurance? NONE. We still have private healthcare and insurance for those who can afford it and can be bothered... and in many ways are that middle ground between the US and Canada/Europe. I have my medicare card, that entitles me to use the public health system. It's nice and simple, and I like that simplicity. But the difference is, that minimum medicare net is enough for a lot of people, and it is there for things other than "I just got shot and I have no private insurance". Know what it costs? 1% of each person's income - there's a separate levy to pay for it. Do the math - for someone earning 50000 dollars that's 500 dollars a year. Less than a third what the average American spends once you do the currency conversion. (about 1200 a year off the top of my head, in US currency, or about 1800 Australian dollars) No, the system isn't perfect, you can never cover every need of every person perfectly... but the system is humane and it functions adequately. In the end, I think it's the belief that this is a more important consideration than raw "efficiency" and picky notions of absolute freedom, or at least that these two things aren't the only considerations, that make a society a society rather than a group of unconnected individuals. Health insurance and healthcare and pharmaceuticals has always struck me as a massive market fKitten Yiffer, anyway, because those who need it the most can usually afford it the least, and because there's such a massive govenrment involvement pretty much inevitably because it's got so many non-economic factors involved. Like, you know, basic "people not dying in the streets" ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ And oil and water - who says you can't mix ideologies, why can't countries pull pieces from all different views rather than picking one ideology and applying it to an absolutist extent? Society and government are very multi-faceted piecemeal things, we do it everywhere, we all have mixed-market economies in every country, we balance different ideals, different points of view, limited resources, and the resulting morass somehow functions pretty well, whether it's in America's chosen mix or Sweden's or Australia's or whoever's. I'd also argue that "socialist" and "capitalist" ideologies (of course it's NOT an "either/or" thing and there's lots of different conceptions of "capitalist" or "socialist") aren't necessarily incompatible, they just focus on very different aspects of society. Speaking in broadest most stereotypical terms - the "capitalist" ideology is concerned with competition and the "top end" and has almost no answer for the "losers" and for poverty and anything noneconomic like externalities, views people as a resource and the environment as a freebie... while the "socialist" view couldn't care less about businesses and competition and markets, and instead wants basic standards of decency and humanity and, broadly, minimum standards - sees only the losers and the damages caused by market forces, looks out for those who can't compete, etc. And sees the environment as a freebie. They don't seem so incompatible to me - just different focusses and different strengths. (edited by Arwon on 09-09-04 12:45 PM) |
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Smallhacker Green Birdo SMW Hacking Moderator Level: 68  Posts: 494/2273 EXP: 2647223 For next: 81577 Since: 03-15-04 From: Söderhamn, Sweden Since last post: 10 hours Last activity: 9 hours |
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| Sweden, eh? Sounds like a nice place... Lezze... How far away from sweden do I live? *Fetches my ruler* Hmm... Zero centimeters... Oops. Seriously... Sweden's great. However, it have got a 1) 2) 1 3) The two largest newspapers (Aftonbladet and Expressen) have got really 4) 5) 6) 7) |
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hhallahh Bob-Omb Level: 38 Posts: 343/607 EXP: 365476 For next: 4971 Since: 03-15-04 From: Portland, OR Since last post: 73 days Last activity: 60 days |
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| Now, health care. As you have pointed out, healthcare in the US is pretty inextricably linked to the massive sums of money the US govenrment provides for research and such. Given this, why not simply admit that America's health care system has heavy state influence like the rest of ours, taxpayers are footing the bill, and stop pretending like it's a free market? I can admit it, and freely do so. I think it's somewhat of an abomination as well, violating the capitalist ideology. America, of course, isn't perfect, but the liberal spirit is far more intact here than in other countries, which alone is something that pretty much guarantees American economic dominance over the socialistic rich countries of the world. ...and yes, as you point out, health insurance exists anyway. But you know what? 40% of Americans don't have it. Do you know how many Australians lack health insurance? NONE. We still have private healthcare and insurance for those who can afford it and can be bothered... and in many ways are that middle ground between the US and Canada/Europe. I have my medicare card, that entitles me to use the public health system. It's nice and simple, and I like that simplicity. But the difference is, that minimum medicare net is enough for a lot of people, and it is there for things other than "I just got shot and I have no private insurance". Know what it costs? 1% of each person's income - there's a separate levy to pay for it. Do the math - for someone earning 50000 dollars that's 500 dollars a year. Less than a third what the average American spends once you do the currency conversion. (about 1200 a year off the top of my head, in US currency, or about 1800 Australian dollars) You seem to have the fundamental misunderstanding that I actually care what percentage of Americans are covered by health care. I can freely concede, as well, that a small amount of income redistribution can help a lot of people. However, I can say that it's highly unjust for the government to force people to pay for the health care of others. Sure, the poor may not mind that their benefits are the products of theft... they believe that this theft is justified, simply because they have more "need"! "I need health care more than you need your new Porsche, so it would be justified if I stole your Porsche and traded it for a health care plan"... this is the morality of socialism, only people seem to accept it when government is the one doing the theft. Are you going to make the argument that need-based and coercive appropriations are compatible with the (generally) meritocratic and voluntary ideas underlying capitalism? Of course not. You can, of course, have a society with different philosophies competing for power, but when these philosophies influence real institutions, the institution's fundamental workings will be full of contradiction. Only mass cognitive dissonance on the part of the citizenry, though, can lead to people who in their own minds believe in social capitalism. Socialism and capitalism each have different axioms, but to actually believe the axioms of both philosophies simultaneously is completely impossible unless you never really consider their logical consequences. |
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Sofie Level: 52 Posts: 833/1210 EXP: 1028812 For next: 55028 Since: 03-15-04 Since last post: 187 days Last activity: 279 days |
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Originally posted by Jesper How many tv's do you think we have? And saft isn't like lemonade at all. it isn't as syrupish (or overly filled with sugar), and the saft stays mixed once you mix it in, rather than sinking to the bottom. (edited by Alouette on 09-09-04 03:31 PM) |
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Super Sion You BlockHead! Level: 70 Posts: 1239/2472 EXP: 3002513 For next: 13298 Since: 03-15-04 From: Yo Mommas House Since last post: 29 min. Last activity: 5 min. |
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| In world studies eveyone was assigned a country and guess what? I got Sweden, all I have to do is draw the flag though. Since I was assigned to Sweden Sweden has officially gotten cooler. | |||
MathOnNapkins Math n' Hacks Level: 67  Posts: 420/2189 EXP: 2495887 For next: 96985 Since: 03-18-04 From: Base Tourian Since last post: 1 hour Last activity: 32 min. |
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Originally posted by Simon Heh, I have a friend in Sweden, and that is exactly why he hates Sweden so much. He wants to come here (US) and open a gun/ explosive store. |
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Bella Ludwig Von Koopa You're Gonna Love Me Level: 76  Posts: 1097/2962 EXP: 3891483 For next: 114577 Since: 03-29-04 From: Groovy Way Since last post: 8 min. Last activity: 6 min. |
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| Heh, Sweden. I take that over the U.S . U.S needs to get it's ass in gear. |
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| Acmlm's Board - I2 Archive - General Chat - SWEDEN > AMERICA! |
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