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| Acmlm's Board - I2 Archive - General Chat - SWEDEN > AMERICA! |
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What do you think after reading this? Is Sweden or America a better place to live?| Sweden |
70.2%, 33 votes | America |
29.8%, 14 votes | Multi-voting is disabled.
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Kefka Indefinitely Unbanned Level: 81 Posts: 2271/3392 EXP: 4826208 For next: 166641 Since: 03-15-04 From: Pomona, CALIFORNIA BABY! Since last post: 4 hours Last activity: 4 hours |
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| Well, since I need to make at least one post daily for poor Knuxor, and I was just talking to Kitten Yiffer about this on AIM... Anyway, some of you may be thinking I'm a lunatic for saying this. Well, I will show you some info here from the CIA World Factbook, which shows some pretty important numbers... some favoring America, others not. And actually, this article makes a big argument for Denmark > Sweden. But I like Sweden better.  And no, it's not just becuase Kitten Yiffer is there.  And now, for some information that should be impartial: Denmark's GDP per capita (PPP): $31,200 Finland: $27,300 (plus the best education system in the world) Iceland: $30,900 (severely less than it would be otherwise, because it is in purchasing power parity and prices in Iceland are very high indeed, which reduces the impact of the wealth) Norway: $37,700 Sweden: $26,800 USA: $37,800 (prices in America are the cheapest in the "developed" world) Now what happens if we take away the top 10%? In the USA, the top 10% have 30.5% of everything (and that is 1997, so they probably have a bigger share now). Denmark: 24% (2000), Finland: 21.6% (1991), Iceland: (impossible to do, because the CIA World Factbook says: NA%, damn!), Norway: 21.8% (1995) and Sweden: 20.1% (1992). OK, so let us see the comparisons when we take the top 10% in each country out of the equation: Denmark: $23,712 Finland: $21,403.2 Iceland: $NA Norway: $29,481.4 Sweden: $21,413.2 USA: $26,271 Now, there is another measurement of prosperity, which is arguably the most important economic indicator, life expectancy. Denmark: 77.44 years Finland: 78.24 years Iceland: 80.18 years Norway: 79.25 years Sweden: 80.3 years USA: 77.43 years In Sweden, people live almost 3 years longer than people in the USA, which indicates a better quality of life. And, after all, isn't quality of life the whole point? It would be quite interesting to find out what the life expectancy is without the top 10%, but unfortunately, I could not find any helpful information on that in the CIA World Factbook. The USA had a quite substantial lead over the average Nordic country when the GDP is taken at face value, but the lead was greatly lessened when the top 10% were removed. At face value the USA was $11,000 in front of Sweden. After the 10% were removed, the lead was less than $5000 (and that is not including that fact that the USA spends more on helathcare and education that anyone else! Finland spends $6000 per school student per year, the USA spends $10,240, and Finland has the best education system in the world. The USA spends the most on healthcare than any other country, yet has only the 37th best healthcare system). And yes, I talked to a "friend" before using these arguments.  Ok, there is something that Denmark and Sweden have that we don't. That is, EQUAL oppurtunity. Or at the very least, more equal oppurtunity. They aren't completely equal by any means. In America, if you have someone that was born in a rich family, we know full well that they will have a way better chance to succeed in life than someone who was born in an impoverished family. People that have grown up in rich families have oppurtunity to better education and better health oppurtunities than someone growing up in a poor family. And now, this comes back to the "extra rights you can buy" idea that I somewhat mentioned. People who grow up in rich families have oppurtunity to essentially have superior rights to someone in a poor family. The poor family, as already mentioned, must be limited to free education, and the public education system right now in America is not that great. The rich people however, who can spend lots of extra money, spend that money to send their children to an education that almost gives them a guaranteed ticket to college. And it certainly is not because of work THEY did. It may be because of work their parents did, but not themselves. Yet, they already have an advantage over the poor kid, who also had no control over what they were born into. In Sweden, no matter what class you are born into, you will be in the same public school system. And their public school system in Sweden is not crap by any means. On health, the rich kid has a much better oppurtunity to go without any diseases throughout their childhood than the poor kid. Again, the equal health care rights to everyone in Sweden fixes this. You can not buy "extra" health care. This is not so much about closing the gap between rich and poor, codenothing, this is about giving everyone an EQUAL oppurtunity to start their life. In America, you have oppurtunity, yes, but if you are born rich, you already have a huge advantage over poor kids. Every kid should have the SAME chance when they are born of getting to college and getting those degrees you mentioned. Granted, there will be some who don't get that far anyway, and some who will get that far, and then, yes, they should be earning much more than the kid who didn't. But what matters is that the other kid had an equal chance. I'm not saying that the rich and poor gap HAS to be closed, but everyone HAS to have the same economic and legal rights, so that we all have the same oppurtunity to succeed in this country. And the way Sweden handles it makes them much closer to being an equal oppurtunity country than we are. Which is why their economy policy is better, Zerato. Now, with equal oppurtunity, yes, you will probably find that the gap between rich and poor will shrink. But that is because everyone must work the same from the start to get more money, as opposed to those already on top not having to work as hard as those on the bottom. Get it? Ok, so in review, if you have equal oppurtunity, you have equal healthcare, equal pension, equal tax %, equal everything. So you choose whether you are going to be rich or poor, as opposed to being forced into it. They have CHOICE as to their social class in Sweden and Denmark! That is why they have such a closeness between the rich and poor in those countries. They all have to work just as hard to make the same amount of money. And they are all getting the same education, and same health care. "Is this possible in a corporate-heavy America?" some might ask. Well, yes, it is a matter of commitment. Another thing that Sweden has that we don't is strong workers' unions. Unionization seems to be discouraged in this country. If we can have some government people that support unions the same way, say, Cesar Chavez did, and then the unions become strong enough in this country, then they can essentially force the government into giving them equal rights, instead of rights with an extra cost. So I think it is very possible to have a great state of equality for all classes like they have in Sweden and Denmark. But the only problem with it here is that some people will be sayin "OOH! That's socialism! That's bad!" or "Well, the corporations won't profit at all from that!"... we may be too set on capitalism... Anyway, that will be my one post for today, unless there are some arguments here. Feel free to vote in the poll, but do so only after reading this. This was my argument for why Kitten Yiffer lives in a better society than I do. |
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Aioria Boss Bass  Yes I will!! ;D  Middle Ages Warrior Level: 58 Posts: 872/1567 EXP: 1516086 For next: 61460 Since: 03-15-04 From: near the pneumon ultramicroscop icsilicovolcanoconiosis land Since last post: 19 days Last activity: 19 days |
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| Yes it is!! At least Sweeden doesn't have a stupid Bush like person administrating the country ^^ Yahoo, Sweeden, teh land of teh furries  (edited by Aioria on 09-07-04 02:38 PM) |
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MyLiverHurtz Red Paragoomba Level: 13 Posts: 14/60 EXP: 9609 For next: 658 Since: 09-01-04 From: Canada Since last post: 36 days Last activity: 3 days |
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| I've done some rather extensive research on Sweden for my civics class. Personally I think Sweden is better due to the higher quality of life and the general socialist nature sits well with me, as I was brought up with those values here in Canada. (edited by MyLiverHurtz on 09-07-04 03:10 PM) |
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random Goomba Level: 10 Posts: 23/32 EXP: 3871 For next: 543 Since: 08-02-04 From: Eastern Deathville Since last post: 387 days Last activity: 276 days |
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| Dude, Sweden kicks ass! w00t go equal oppurtunity! Also I'd like to express my hate of capitalism, HATE! | |||
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Jesper Busy, busy, busy. Level: 69  Posts: 859/2390 EXP: 2856000 For next: 13743 Since: 03-15-04 From: Sweden. Since last post: 176 days Last activity: 79 days |
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| Let's get this out of the way right from the beginning. Yes, there are racists in Sweden (sadly), yes there are high taxes in Sweden, yes, there are other things you may or may not dislike. But yes, there are those things in other countries too (the 'tax' part could be debated, but it's only an example) and from what I can see, that's not the point of this thread, so don't take over the topic complaining about these things. | |||
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Dylan Devil Trumpets and Angel Trombones ~ Level: 54  Posts: 869/1407 EXP: 1181697 For next: 52173 Since: 06-19-04 From: Ottawa, Canada. Since last post: 1 day Last activity: 6 hours |
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I've actually done a lot of research on Finland, which has a very high quality of living. Being Sweden's eastern neighbor, socially and governmentally they are quite similar. It is also a nation with similarites to Canada, where I live.  So yeah, Sweden pwns America, I actually dislike America anyway. |
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Dekker Avesque Goomba Level: 10  Posts: 3/32 EXP: 3754 For next: 660 Since: 08-29-04 Since last post: 190 days Last activity: 13 days |
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| Well, there certainly seem to be many perks to Sweden... The biggest of all? No Bush administration. If Bush is re-elected it will be my personal duty to assassinate him. |
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DarkSlaya POOOOOOOOOOOORN! Level: 88 Posts: 2034/4249 EXP: 6409254 For next: 241410 Since: 05-16-04 From: Montreal, Quebec, Canada Since last post: 8 hours Last activity: 5 hours |
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| I don't even need to read any post to answer.... *Sephiroth7231121's vote goes to Sweden |
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MathOnNapkins Math n' Hacks Level: 67  Posts: 412/2189 EXP: 2495887 For next: 96985 Since: 03-18-04 From: Base Tourian Since last post: 1 hour Last activity: 32 min. |
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| I'd normally vote Sweden because it's awesome, but I'm voting America b/c it also kicks ass and by the look of things people are expected to vote Sweden. I'm just a contrary mofo. :p | |||
Prier Archangel Administrative Priestess. NUCLEAR SUB WEEEOOOO Level: 119  Posts: 2913/8392 EXP: 18790939 For next: 138352 Since: 03-15-04 From: Nerima Dist. - Tokyo, Japan Since last post: 1 day Last activity: 1 day |
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| To live in a place equal to that of Sofie and Squarepants... ...naw...I'd probably go nuts from being plagued by Squarepants all the time...although it would be a nice vacation. |
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Ramadan Roy Like Like ...Or you'll be wearing your ass for a hat. Renowned Otaku Level: 44 Posts: 386/816 EXP: 569705 For next: 41580 Since: 03-15-04 Since last post: 13 hours Last activity: 7 hours |
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| Hell yea, Sweden rocks! How can you go wrong with awesome furniture(like that of Ikea),peace, and bands such as The Hives? I certainly would like to visit Sweden some day. Although, unfortunately, in all parts of the world, discord will always be found in some form. | |||
Banedon Giant Red Paratroopa Level: 55 Posts: 574/1408 EXP: 1291380 For next: 22809 Since: 03-15-04 From: Michigan Since last post: 101 days Last activity: 90 days |
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| I don't really like living in the US...I wouldn't mind Europe, but the only language I know is English... | |||
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Jesper Busy, busy, busy. Level: 69 Posts: 865/2390 EXP: 2856000 For next: 13743 Since: 03-15-04 From: Sweden. Since last post: 176 days Last activity: 79 days |
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Originally posted by BanedonTrust me, not everyone's English is as bad as Kitten Yiffer's  I'd estimate around 80% of the population here can speak enough English to be able to have an interesting discussion at a board like this. So if those are all of your worries, you needn't worry too much. Besides, if you don't mind lots of rain and sticking u-s in to you strange places in some words, why not the UK? |
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Dylan Devil Trumpets and Angel Trombones ~ Level: 54 Posts: 871/1407 EXP: 1181697 For next: 52173 Since: 06-19-04 From: Ottawa, Canada. Since last post: 1 day Last activity: 6 hours |
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Originally posted by JesperOriginally posted by BanedonTrust me, not everyone's English is as bad as Kitten Yiffer's Isn't English taught as a second language in Scandanavia? Because Jesper, you must have traveled to North America, or you were keen on your studies, because your English is very very fluent and quite advanced for a second language, I've noticed in your posts. |
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Aioria Boss Bass Yes I will!! ;D Middle Ages Warrior Level: 58 Posts: 876/1567 EXP: 1516086 For next: 61460 Since: 03-15-04 From: near the pneumon ultramicroscop icsilicovolcanoconiosis land Since last post: 19 days Last activity: 19 days |
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| Jesper wrote: ''Besides, if you don't mind lots of rain and sticking u-s in to you strange places in some words, why not the UK? '' Yeah, in UK you can eat fish and fries everyday (edited by Aioria on 09-07-04 05:30 PM) (edited by Aioria on 09-07-04 05:31 PM) |
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Jesper Busy, busy, busy. Level: 69 Posts: 867/2390 EXP: 2856000 For next: 13743 Since: 03-15-04 From: Sweden. Since last post: 176 days Last activity: 79 days |
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Originally posted by GB-KFor all of my english classes, from fifth grade continuing until the day I left school in our 12th grade, I've -never- felt that I wasn't ahead of the rest of the class. Apart from a total of less than 48 hours in Norway, I have never left Sweden. The Internet and books taught me English. True story.Originally posted by JesperOriginally posted by BanedonTrust me, not everyone's English is as bad as Kitten Yiffer's |
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Kitten Yiffer Purple wand Furry moderator Vivent l'exp����¯�¿�½������©rience de signalisation d'amusement, ou bien ! Level: 135 Posts: 4806/11162 EXP: 28824106 For next: 510899 Since: 03-15-04 From: Sweden Since last post: 3 hours Last activity: 4 min. |
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| Swedish people are well-known for their english-knowledge as Jesper said. It's obiligtory to learn English and kids learn it in fourth class (11 year old) but many learns English earlier. I adopted a good feel for reading English, alot of it too. But I never have been good with writing it or speaking... thought I have been better in that department too lately. (you should have seen me overusing ellepsis "..." last year...) I love the culture we have here, I like the type of food we have... but for being honest I have no real idea how it is to live in US. |
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neotransotaku Baby Mario 戻れたら、 誰も気が付く Level: 87 Posts: 1331/4016 EXP: 6220548 For next: 172226 Since: 03-15-04 From: Outside of Time/Space Since last post: 11 hours Last activity: 1 hour |
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| the same way about going to live in sweden, england, or any other place. Unless you live there for a while, you don't have the same good feel. There are a lot of things about places you aren't going to find on paper, such as the environment, the culture, etc. Based on numbers, yeah, Sweden looks like a better place to live. But if you can't fit into the culture, can't be yourself, can't sustain yourself on your own. Maybe you are better off not have moved there in the first place. I for one would like to live in Japan for the entertainment and the type of culture they have their. However, being able to live there and be accepted like everyone else is a different story. After all, there are protocols and traditions you need to learn and are assumed you know (or don't know). So...yeah, be careful of what you wish for... |
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Sofie Level: 52 Posts: 813/1210 EXP: 1028812 For next: 55028 Since: 03-15-04 Since last post: 187 days Last activity: 279 days |
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Originally posted by JesperOriginally posted by BanedonTrust me, not everyone's English is as bad as Kitten Yiffer's But in daily life, next to none will answer you in English if you adress them in English. Younger people will, but I'm not bothering to talk to the cashiers at grocery stores anymore (I used to try on the rare occasions I went alone, if not, Adrian does the talking to keep the awkwardnesslevel low. None of them would answer my obviously non Swedish sounding greeting, or a simple question such as 'where can I find this or that?'), even though I probably appear to be generally stupid and rude. I voted for Sweden because of the social system brought up in previous posts. The most wonderful things I want to mention, because I'll be making use of them some day, is the healthcare (don't get sick here if you're not Swedish, because it'll cost you an arm and a leg. However, if you are Swedish, going to see a doctor will be like getting yourself a drink. Though buying a drink might cost more. (medication bills excluded, ofcourse) In Belgium, just seeing a doctor costs alot, which is holding a lot of people of actually going regularly.) and schooling opportunities. (Everyone gets the same ammount of money, based on the intensity of their schooling. If you attend college/university after highschool, you get money based on the package you chose; i.e. going to school fulltime nets you the max amount, signing up for less courses gives you less money. And it's perfectly possible to focus just on studying then, because you get more money than some (part time) jobs get you per month. Compared to the Belgium system of student money, this is heaven, because you can continue your studies, no matter what your social background is. (In Belgium, your parents' income from the two years before you start studying determine how much you get. In best case, this is ~3 times less then what a Swedish fulltime student gets, and you need to go through alot more trouble to get it, pay fees I couldn't translate for Adrian because they simply don't exist here, and so on.) Swedes seem to be healthier overal then Belgium people. From my current findings, I have some points that might be valid to come to such a conclusion; tap water is safe to drink here, and it tastes pretty good too The most popular non alcoholic drink here seems to be 'saft', a syruplike liquid in a variety of fruit tastes that needs to be diluted with water in a 1:10 ratio. Even the brand stuff is about ten times cheaper compared to a single bottle of, say, coke.In Belgium, no one drinks regular tap water, because alot of the living areas are too near to industrial areas, which may or may not contaminate the ground water. It's safer to down a bottle of coke instead, as storebought water and coke go for the same price anyways. Going to a doctor in Sweden doesn't hurt your wallet as much as in Belgium, and it seems often all sorts of specialists are grouped in one building or otherwise close to one another. When I had to go to a specialist back home, it'd be to a hospital an hour away -.- I think this kinda makes the barier lower to go to a doctor when you need to, knowing you'll still be able to eat at the end of the month. Some other random facts; Swedish people apparantly consider Ikea furniture as cheap crap, and find it highly amusing that the rest of the world loves it as designer furniture. Swedes down milk like crazy. This might have to do with milk only lasting about a week after it gets delivered to the stores. I found that very odd, since Belgian stores offer pasterized(?)(treated on high temperatures to kill bacteria and up the time it stays good) milk only. They have a serious sweet tooth aswell, nearly every store that sells some kind of food sells both prepacked and lose candy. Swedish woman aren't all blonde, blue eyed and huge busted. It tends to lean more to the opposite, in fact. Swedes have a great respect for nature, and this includes the governement and I think even the industrybranches. I can understand why though, and would recommend anyone who likes some relaxing environments to consider Sweden.. just don't steal my rock at the lake ---- Don't take my opinions as facts, these are just some things that have stayed with me over the time I've spent in this country |
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Raistlin the Red Robed Paragoomba Level: 15  Posts: 59/76 EXP: 14064 For next: 2320 Since: 08-08-04 From: Fort Hood, Texas Since last post: 362 days Last activity: 318 days |
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| Quality of life? Hm.. sounds better. Military power, and defense?  owned. |
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| Acmlm's Board - I2 Archive - General Chat - SWEDEN > AMERICA! |
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