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Acmlm's Board - I2 Archive - Rom Hacking - EggVine - v0.81 released | |
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Jesper
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Posted on 09-01-04 08:20 PM Link | Quote
As a GUI mechanic on this program I feel qualified to answer some of these questions.
Originally posted by HyperHacker
OK, I just downloaded this (and YI 1.0) and am making notes as I go.

-Pressing the arrow keys should scroll the level.
Yes. You also didn't note that one can't use the scrolling wheel, etc. We're working on it.
Originally posted by HyperHacker
-When the Object List Window is shown, the object list on the main window should disappear, making more level space.
Working on it. For that to really make sense we'd need to make it dockable or something. If anyone has ideas, you're free to PM me about how it should work.
Originally posted by HyperHacker
-When switching back and forth between windows the object list window disappears.
Again, working on it. We don't want it always on top. Maybe that should be a checkbox in the window.
Originally posted by HyperHacker
-Load/Save Level should be under File.
No. We specifically created a level menu to collect all level-related tasks in there. The File menu is a file menu. A level is not a file - rather a portion of it. One could argue that Load goes to a different portion of the file and that Save is a Save for the whole ROM of sorts, but currently, we're not doing that, and probably won't be unless I see clear guidelines to the contrary. And no, I don't care if LM does it in the File menu.
Originally posted by HyperHacker
-The Stationary Tooltip option is buggy, the tooltip flickers in its original position. It's also ugly.
That was my first reported bug as well. More as it develops.
Originally posted by HyperHacker
-That startup message really isn't necessary every time, use the registry to save whether the program's been run before.
-The options, window size and number of badgers need to be saved, dammit.
This is on the todo list. We'll also be saving the .dat files as resources in the program with the option to extract them to .dat files again so you can change them.
Originally posted by HyperHacker
-The About screen really doesn't need a Cancel button.
I'll see for how long he wants to keep this in.
Originally posted by HyperHacker
-When the program is first opened, neither Cross-Section Mode or Screen Exit Mode are checked.
Bug. Yes.
Originally posted by HyperHacker
-The tooltips get cut off at the edge of the editing area.
-The level number should be displayed in the title rather than the ROM name. (Ex: "Egg Vine - Level 00")
I'd opt in favor of both, because both are needed when distinguishing open copies. As for the tooltips, they're currently drawn inside the level area instead of being spawned like usual Windows tooltips. We'll see what we can do.
Squash Monster

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Posted on 09-02-04 12:59 AM Link | Quote
I like a lot of your suggestions, but school and a broken computer are in my way right now.

-Nice way to confirm clearing the level.
Thanks.

-Either it won't switch to Screen Exit Mode, or the menu's not showing that it has. I see no difference.
I remember it working. It should show up to the side.

-The Small Grid and Transparent Wireblocks options pwn.
Thanks again.

-The Stationary Tooltip option is buggy, the tooltip flickers in its original position. It's also ugly.
I'm pretty sure I know how to fix that, at least.

-After changing Zoom to 4x, then to 8x, the vertical scrollbar is disabled. Ono.
Eep. I have a rough idea of how to fix that, but it doesn't help much right now.

-That startup message really isn't necessary every time, use the registry to save whether the program's been run before.
I'll probably use a .ini file instead. However, yes, you're right.

-"Fetch Me A Badger".
You'd better believe it.

-The About screen really doesn't need a Cancel button.
And I don't need a badger fetcher. I think that screen will be used infrequently enough for people to get anoyed by the cancel's impoliteness though.

-When the program is first opened, neither Cross-Section Mode or Screen Exit Mode are checked.
Should they be?

-The tooltips get cut off at the edge of the editing area.
I can fix that if I know how to figure out how high a line of text is.

-Resizing objects is touchy and seems to take a few tries. Getting the cursor right on the corner is a pain, and the object should be redrawn as it's resized.
It could've swore it was redrawn while being resized. As for the area you have to get it in being too small, I can easily make it something like Zoom.

Otherwise, yeah, Jesper knows what he's talking about.
HyperLamer
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Posted on 09-02-04 11:03 AM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Jesper
We specifically created a level menu to collect all level-related tasks in there. The File menu is a file menu. A level is not a file - rather a portion of it. One could argue that Load goes to a different portion of the file and that Save is a Save for the whole ROM of sorts, but currently, we're not doing that, and probably won't be unless I see clear guidelines to the contrary. And no, I don't care if LM does it in the File menu.

I personally consider it a sort of standard. The first menu is always File, and the Load, Save and Exit options are always in it. This is true of 99% of programs I've seen.

Originally posted by Squash Monster
-When the program is first opened, neither Cross-Section Mode or Screen Exit Mode are checked.
Should they be?

Well, yeah. It always has to be in one of those modes, doesn't it? It makes sense to always show which mode that is.
Jesper
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Posted on 09-02-04 01:36 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by HyperHacker
Originally posted by Jesper
We specifically created a level menu to collect all level-related tasks in there. The File menu is a file menu. A level is not a file - rather a portion of it. One could argue that Load goes to a different portion of the file and that Save is a Save for the whole ROM of sorts, but currently, we're not doing that, and probably won't be unless I see clear guidelines to the contrary. And no, I don't care if LM does it in the File menu.

I personally consider it a sort of standard. The first menu is always File, and the Load, Save and Exit options are always in it. This is true of 99% of programs I've seen.
Yes, but that's for saving and loading - Open - the entire file. For EggVine, this entire file is the ROM, and it's not practical to put Save in there, because all the other parts of the program Save by themselves. And no, this is no excuse to put Load/Save Level commands in there, because, by golly, then we'd have to put all the other commands that load or save data there too.

Let's be blunt. This is semantics. All programs have menu options that can be argued should be in a different menu. In a late beta (0.60?), Quit was still in its own EggVine menu on the left, a la Mac OS X. Looking at it from a totally neutral point of view it makes sense, because Quit applies to the whole program, but it's not standard in Windows.

You will probably always demand it there, which I respect, but I don't agree with you, and from what I can remember of our conversations, neither do Squash Monster. Do you also demand the Paragraph option in Word on the File menu too? Because, hey, it loads and saves data from the portion of the file, just like Level loading and saving! (Yes, I know that it's not strictly true because Word won't save anything before you hit Save explicitly.)
Squash Monster

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Posted on 09-02-04 03:36 PM Link | Quote
Indeed, up untill 0.60, the menu system wasn't all too great. The OS X styled EggVine and File menus were probably the most reasonable ones in the set.

Jesper's version offers what I consider to be a good balence of familiarity and logic.

I like the OS X style of menu divisions. I also tend to like OS X in general, but anyone who's seen my screenshots knows that.

EDIT: Sorry I missed this part:

Originally posted by HyperHacker
Originally posted by Squash Monster
-When the program is first opened, neither Cross-Section Mode or Screen Exit Mode are checked.
Should they be?

Well, yeah. It always has to be in one of those modes, doesn't it? It makes sense to always show which mode that is.

No, it doesn't have to always be in one of those modes.
Screen Exit mode turns on the screen exit editing bit to the side.
Cross-section mode makes objects marked as cross-section peices in the data file turn into dotted outlines and become impossible to edit (which is usefull if they're supposed to be on top of everything).

(edited by Squash Monster on 09-04-04 09:27 AM)
Jesper
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Posted on 09-04-04 06:38 PM Link | Quote
*bump* This is the recommended thread in which to post EggVine posts.
Squash Monster

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Posted on 09-04-04 06:44 PM Link | Quote
Ah good, now I can post again, thanks Jesper.

Now that my computer works and I've got a weekend to waste, I've started moving on the program again.

These are new fixes, as they're listed in BugStatus.txt:

HyperHacker   - View screenexits does not check properly       - Fixed
HyperHacker   - Stationary tooltip flickers                    - Fixed
HyperHacker   - Unzooming doesn't re-enable vertical scrollbar - Fixed
HyperHacker   - Display level name in title                    - Fixed
HyperHacker   - Make object list window hide the other list    - Fixed
SquashMonster - Object window lacks checkboxes                 - Fixed


Otherwise, does anyone know why the following sub never seems to run?

Private Sub Form_KeyDown(KeyCode As Integer, Shift As Integer)
    Select Case KeyCode
        Case vbKeyLeft
            hscLevelPos = hscLevelPos - 1
        Case vbKeyRight
            hscLevelPos = hscLevelPos + 1
        Case vbKeyUp
            vscLevelPos = vscLevelPos - 1
        Case vbKeyDown
            vscLevelPos = vscLevelPos + 1
        Case vbKeyDelete
            cmdRemoveObject_Click
    End Select
End Sub


(edited by Squash Monster on 09-04-04 11:14 AM)
dan

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Posted on 09-04-04 11:30 PM Link | Quote
Has your form's KeyPreview property been set to True?
knuck

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Posted on 09-05-04 12:01 AM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Jesper
No. We specifically created a level menu to collect all level-related tasks in there. The File menu is a file menu. A level is not a file - rather a portion of it. One could argue that Load goes to a different portion of the file and that Save is a Save for the whole ROM of sorts, but currently, we're not doing that, and probably won't be unless I see clear guidelines to the contrary. And no, I don't care if LM does it in the File menu
LM and other 3874938 programs.
No one here cares if you want to make it so different from LM. However we want something that we are used to in ANY program. Do you see Photsohop save function in the "Image" menu?

Wow, just noticed that this post was from 3 days ago...
Squash Monster

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Posted on 09-05-04 03:23 AM Link | Quote
dan: Nope, that wasn't the problem. I fixed it (though I'm still not sure what was broken), and it works partially now.

knuck: If no programs ever deviated from the established standard, EggVine would be command-prompt driven.
Jesper
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Posted on 09-05-04 03:26 AM Link | Quote
Originally posted by knuck
Do you see Photsohop save function in the "Image" menu?
An image in PS is the active document. A level in EggVine is just part of the active 'document'.
knuck

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Posted on 09-05-04 06:52 AM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Jesper
An image in PS is the active document.
Nope, palletes are other document. As much as config, filter etc.

Anyway, why keep something that no one likes?
Gavin

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Posted on 09-05-04 07:22 AM Link | Quote
Originally posted by knuck
Originally posted by Jesper
Do you see Photsohop save function in the "Image" menu?


Photoshop is a proffesionally produces application in which the programmers get paid to code. i say until any of you pay him to produce this application, don't nit-pick.

everyone always acts like it's a god given right to have an editor for a game, when it reality they only have them due to the generosity of others

(edited by Gavin on 09-04-04 10:24 PM)
knuck

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Posted on 09-05-04 07:49 AM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Gavin
Photoshop is a proffesionally produces application in which the programmers get paid to code. i say until any of you pay him to produce this application, don't nit-pick.

everyone always acts like it's a god given right to have an editor for a game, when it reality they only have them due to the generosity of others
Uh, do you think that if they wasn't getting paid they would put it in the Image menu? hah
Also i don't care if it's their generosity and if i'm god or not. I'm giving my opinion kthx.
HyperLamer
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Posted on 09-05-04 09:19 AM Link | Quote
Well, heck, if Squash wasn't making one, I would be.
Gavin

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Posted on 09-05-04 10:10 AM Link | Quote
Originally posted by knuck

everyone always acts like it's a god given right to have an editor for a game, when it reality they only have them due to the generosity of others
Uh, do you think that if they wasn't getting paid they would put it in the Image menu?


if they fucking felt like it
Jesper
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Posted on 09-05-04 04:43 PM Link | Quote
Okay, shut up for just a second. Here's what you do. In Photoshop when you want to edit an image you load an image file. But in EggVine when you want to edit a level, it's not its own file. You open its ROM, and THEN you pick a level to edit within it. Therefore, with regards to opening and saving, the ROM plays the same role in EggVine as the Image does in Photoshop. Levels could be seen, I guess, as layers, and layers "save themselves" in Photoshop along with the file, but that would be impractical in EggVine, and so we instead work with the way of saving the parts of the ROM you've changed explicitly.

In short, an image in Photoshop IS your open file. A level in EggVine is just a part of the open file. The ROM is the open file.
knuck

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Posted on 09-05-04 09:49 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Jesper
In short, an image in Photoshop IS your open file. A level in EggVine is just a part of the open file. The ROM is the open file.
In Photoshop you need to open an image in order to edit it's pallete. Yet you save it in the File menu.

(edited by knuck on 09-05-04 12:50 PM)
Jesper
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Posted on 09-05-04 10:01 PM Link | Quote
True. But Photoshop came out on the Mac first, and on the Mac they put every Save/Open action that writes to file - regardless if it's on a fraction of the file or on the whole file or to several files - in the File menu. This is not the Mac. If this was the Mac, there'd still be an EggVine menu with Quit in it.

I'm not going to change this unless I get some very convincing arguments, and while I've heard some good points, most of them do not apply entirely. It's simply not practical to stack up a buffer of everything and use a global Save command to save it. And when it's not one command to save the whole file, I think the Save commands will fit better in their respective menus than in the File menu.
knuck

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Posted on 09-05-04 10:09 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Jesper
It's simply not practical to stack up a buffer of everything and use a global Save command to save it. And when it's not one command to save the whole file, I think the Save commands will fit better in their respective menus than in the File menu.
"File>Save Level to ROM..."

(edited by knuck on 09-05-04 01:09 PM)
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