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1 user currently in Super Mario World hacking:  labmaster |
| Acmlm's Board - I2 Archive - Super Mario World hacking - Should FuSoYa port Lunar Magic to other OSes? |
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Exactly what the topic says, make LM available to people that don't use Windows without needing WINE/Windows emu?| Yes, make it available to everyone! |
39.5%, 15 votes | No, keep it to Windows users! |
21.1%, 8 votes | Undecided... uh... PIE! |
39.5%, 15 votes | Multi-voting is disabled.
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Hypher Newcomer Level: 3 Posts: 1/2 EXP: 64 For next: 64 Since: 05-29-04 From: Oregon, USA Since last post: 519 days Last activity: 339 days |
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| I'd like to give my two cents on this issue. In short, I am a strong proponent of Open Source software. Firstly, I'd like to say that in a thread about releasing source of an app, talking about ways to bypass its protections and such will NOT help in convincing the author to release it. By keeping it closed source, he can stop the causal hacker from bypassing the ROM lock. And yes, that is one reason to keep it closed source. However, is that reason enough to keep it closed source? I personally think not. The point of an application of this sort is to make editing of a given resource ( in this case, SMW ) easier. At least, that is what I shall assume for my argument. If it is not the case, the rest of my statement can be disregarded. Now, the reason why someone would want to keep an application closed source can pretty much be divided into two things: "Trade Secrets" and Ego. The first being the most often reason something is kept closed. For a company, this often makes sense, for there is money to be lost if the competition learns how something is implemented. The second is very understandable, You made it, You want to control it. Its your baby -- you want to be the sole person who "raises" it. In a community such as this one, the first reason is a complete moot point. The only thing releasing the source will do is allow more people to review your code before it is released. The simple fact of the matter is, having 100 brains to work on a project is better then having 1. Now, by opening it, those 100 can work with you, and enhance the work that has already been done. This allows for more stable and/or more frequent releases and thereby increasing the power of the application. By keeping it closed, those 100 brains will do one of several things: Some will live with it and do nothing. Some will try and make their own programs to do the same thing that the existing application does, and perhaps some other little thing that it cannot do. And many will try and crack the protections and such that the application imposes, ways of making it do more then it was design to do in various convoluted ways. Now, one thing that people use as a reason for not releasing source is that someone will "steal" the source. In my experience, this rarely happens, especially in a community like this one where most everyone knows most other people interested in this type of task. As was state earlier, it would cause flaming and dishonor to steal the code, for people would recognize it. Of course, someone might use pieces of it in their own applications, but, is that really a bad thing? It is helping the community that the app was designed to help in the first place. One other mentioned reason for keeping the application closed source was not wanting "proofread it for release." Now, one of the strong reasons to release it is so that others may proofread it for you. As I stated earlier, 100 brains can do these things much better then one, no matter how talented that one may be. Once released, in all likely hood, it would be re-factored to make it more readable, which would make it more maintainable by all, including the original author. Easter Eggs. An interesting and entertaining feature in a program. By releasing the source, you do give people an easier way of finding those eggs. However, is that a bad thing? Whether found by messing with the app, or looking through the source, people will still be entertained by them when they are found. Now, I am unclear on this point, but it sounds like some of these easter eggs might actually have some useful functionality. If this is the case, would it not be in the best interest for the ROM hacking community for everyone to have the easiest access to these features? Hiding them does not help anyone. Now, my question is simple. With the above reasons for going the open-source route, does the fact that you are giving your code to world, releasing your control over it. |
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BMF98567 BLACK HAS BUILT A SILLY DICE-MAZE! GO! Current list of BURNING FURY >8( recipients: - Yiffy Kitten (x2) - Xkeeper Level: 53  Posts: 207/1261 EXP: 1094149 For next: 62970 Since: 03-15-04 From: Blobaria Special Move: Rising Meatloaf Backhand Combo Since last post: 21 hours Last activity: 1 hour |
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FuSoYa doesn't want to release the source, FuSoYa doesn't have to release the source. Plain and simple. It's his and he can do as he pleases with it, and this constant pestering of him to release it got old a long time ago. He's gone FAR above and beyond the call of duty in giving us as fully-featured an editor as he did, considering it was done in his free time, and he got NO compensation for it. Now, think about it--is it really fair to pester him for ANYTHING? How do you think he feels, being asked to give and give and give some more, without receiving anything in return, except maybe an occasional "thx Fu  "?No offense to FuSoYa, but Lunar Magic has had its This community has an incredible amount of untapped potential. We just need to open our eyes and realize that. (...wow. That deviated ever so slightly from the original topic, but I think I still made some valid points.) |
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FuSoYa Defender of Relm Level: 26  Posts: 64/255 EXP: 99529 For next: 2746 Since: 03-15-04 From: Moon Since last post: 7 days Last activity: 7 hours |
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Hypher: ...a polite, well-reasoned, articulate response from a stranger in a controversial thread?  I don't know whether to be deeply shocked, or deeply saddened at being deeply shocked. In any case, well said.Rather than address all the individual points that have been brought up, I'll cut to the heart of the matter. The primary problem I have with releasing LM's source is two-fold: 1) I'm neutral on open source in general, and tend towards closed source for my own projects. It's simply a matter of personal preference, as I'm aware of the pros and cons of both. While I have released source before, there must usually be a compelling reason to do so to overcome my own reluctance in the matter. Which brings us to the second point... 2) It's done. I wholeheartedly concur with BMF's statement. Lunar Magic successfully does what it was designed to do, and does it exceedingly well in my opinion. I'm content to leave it as it is, except for any critical bugs that come to light. While I don't intend to go anywhere at the moment, I also don't intend to be at the forefront of SMW hacking now that LM's development is over and DWTLC is done. If this community wishes to grow from here on in, it will have to start taking the initiative to do so on its own. Separate tools can indeed be made to edit what LM does not. On the Easter Eggs... yes, there's one last fairly major one that hasn't been activated yet, to my knowledge. Now and then I've considered revealing it, as it really is useful and it's been in there for 8 months now. I may end up doing so sometime this year, if it isn't found. |
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Smallhacker Green Birdo SMW Hacking Moderator Level: 68  Posts: 178/2273 EXP: 2647223 For next: 81577 Since: 03-15-04 From: Söderhamn, Sweden Since last post: 10 hours Last activity: 9 hours |
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Originally posted by FuSoYa Oh?! *Opens Lunar Magic* -Five minutes later- Darn! None of these codes works: Showmethelasteasteregg Pleaseshowmethelasteasteregg Comeongimmethelasteasteregg GIMMETHEFRIGGINEASTEREGGORILLREMOVEYOUFROMTHEHARDDRIVE Okigiveup Later today I'll try these: Fusoyaisthegratest Whatisthematrix Chelsea Unlocksma2supportplease |
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Atma X Bandit Level: 43  Posts: 242/801 EXP: 553639 For next: 11407 Since: 03-16-04 From: Derrière vous!!! Since last post: 43 days Last activity: 14 days |
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| Geno found this message in LM about a month ago, but it's Code has never been revealed yet: "Overworld level and directional ASM enhancement data" Could this relate to the last major Easter Egg? |
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Smallhacker Green Birdo SMW Hacking Moderator Level: 68 Posts: 180/2273 EXP: 2647223 For next: 81577 Since: 03-15-04 From: Söderhamn, Sweden Since last post: 10 hours Last activity: 9 hours |
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| Well... This is getting offtopic, but... My guesses are one of the following functions: Something about an extended animation ASM that allows up to 0x20 more 16x16 tiles or something A window showing memory and RAT information These guesses was made after comparing LM 1.51 with 1.61 (1.60 was the version released 8 months ago, but I couldn't find a copy of it...) V. 1.51 can be found at Zophar. |
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Atma X Bandit Level: 43 Posts: 243/801 EXP: 553639 For next: 11407 Since: 03-16-04 From: Derrière vous!!! Since last post: 43 days Last activity: 14 days |
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| I have a copy of all the old versions of Lunar Magic (from 1.30 and up) I'll send you 1.60 tomarrow (edited by Atma X on 05-30-04 06:08 AM) |
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Xkeeper 2.0 Hammer Brother Again... :P Level: 49  Posts: 80/1091 EXP: 880818 For next: 3065 Since: 03-15-04 Since last post: 5 hours Last activity: 3 hours |
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Originally posted by Smallhacker I was guessing it was scrolling pipes.  |
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Atma X Bandit Level: 43 Posts: 245/801 EXP: 553639 For next: 11407 Since: 03-16-04 From: Derrière vous!!! Since last post: 43 days Last activity: 14 days |
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| Here the are http://home.comcast.net/~atma-x/Lunar_Magic_1.30-1.60.zip Note: I never got LM 1.40 or 1.50 because FuSoYa released the Bug fix versions before could I download them. But, since only bugs were updated, it shouldn't really matter. Edit: The text "Overworld level and directional ASM enhancement data" in Lunar Magic goes all the way back to LM 1.41 (probably even 1.40, since 1.41 is a bug fix) But, it is not in version 1.30. (edited by Atma X on 05-30-04 03:43 PM) |
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Smallhacker Green Birdo SMW Hacking Moderator Level: 68 Posts: 182/2273 EXP: 2647223 For next: 81577 Since: 03-15-04 From: Söderhamn, Sweden Since last post: 10 hours Last activity: 9 hours |
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| IIRC, the "Overworld level and directional ASM enhancement data" are an ASM hack that LM automatically installs which allows the user to choose what level a Layer 1 tile uses. | |||
Parasyte Bullet Bill Level: 35  Posts: 25/514 EXP: 267348 For next: 12588 Since: 05-25-04 Since last post: 104 days Last activity: 32 days |
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| Continuing the discussion on the locking feature in Lunar Magic... It's just some simple encryption routines, plus a few bytes which tell Lunar Magic, "Hey, I'm locked, don't open me." While on the subject, I have been developing a program that recovers locked hacks. Note that I said recovers, and not unlocks. The program will remain private for as long as Lunar Magic's source code does. Out of respect for FuSoYa's work. Thus far, the program can recover very simple hacks, as it does not fully support ExGFX or other 'extended features' of Lunar Magic. (edited by Parasyte on 05-30-04 08:35 PM) |
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HyperLamer <||bass> and this was the soloution i thought of that was guarinteed to piss off the greatest amount of people Sesshomaru Tamaranian Level: 118 Posts: 842/8210 EXP: 18171887 For next: 211027 Since: 03-15-04 From: Canada, w00t! LOL FAD Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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| If locking is the only reason for not releasing the code, he can always make that a function in a DLL and not give its code out. The rest of the program would be open-source, but all the lock function would be is a function call and a compiled DLL. I personally doubt that's the only reason, though. BTW... Originally posted by FuSoYa in this threadOriginally posted by Cellar Dweller |
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Atma X Bandit Level: 43 Posts: 252/801 EXP: 553639 For next: 11407 Since: 03-16-04 From: Derrière vous!!! Since last post: 43 days Last activity: 14 days |
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Originally posted by Smallhacker Yea, I was just explaining that it couldn't be the Last Major Easter Egg that Fu's talking about (and not anything else that could still be hidden), but thanks for specifing exactly what it does.  Edit: Here's the only hint FuSoYa gave me, I know I probably shoudln't make it public, but it does me no good, because I don't have a clue of what it relates to (maybe it relates to a something on a game, or a gun of some sort, , I don't have the slightest clue) (And besides, I think he would have told it to anyone else who asked for a clue) The Hint: M16-7k (he also gave me a winking face " " after wards)I bet that this is barely related to the Easter Egg, knowing the way Fu is. |
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Hypher Newcomer Level: 3 Posts: 2/2 EXP: 64 For next: 64 Since: 05-29-04 From: Oregon, USA Since last post: 519 days Last activity: 339 days |
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Originally posted by FuSoYa Thank you. Although I am not seen often here, I have looked at LM before, and this sparked my interest. I thought that the best way to approach this, as with any issue, was with civilized speech, rather then flames. Originally posted by FuSoYa I can understand that attitude, and indeed, it is a personal thing for every coder, and I respect that choice on your part. However, I believe that there is a compelling reason in this case. If perhaps not for the source code to the application itself, the methods for decompression and such would be useful, I think, to other editor writers. Such would allow people to not have to "reinvent the wheel" so to speak. I may be completely off on this, and all compression algorithms way already be well known and public domain code may exist for such. In that case, my argument would be a moot point. However, a good public domain library for the sorts of manipulations that might be useful in an editor would be cool. I do believe you have already created a library capable of certain things of that matter. Perhaps that would be a more appropriate project to consider going public with. Then again, maybe not. I'm not the author of either, so I'm not the best to say such things. One last thing, and this is to the other posters in this thread. Would it not make more sense to have a separate thread for discussion of Lunar Magic easter eggs? Perhaps leaving this to the discussion of porting and |
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BMF98567 BLACK HAS BUILT A SILLY DICE-MAZE! GO! Current list of BURNING FURY >8( recipients: - Yiffy Kitten (x2) - Xkeeper Level: 53 Posts: 211/1261 EXP: 1094149 For next: 62970 Since: 03-15-04 From: Blobaria Special Move: Rising Meatloaf Backhand Combo Since last post: 21 hours Last activity: 1 hour |
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Originally posted by Atma XHrm. At first glance, that looks like an arcade ROM label to me (MAME ROM files usually have names like spc-3.1k), but arcade ROMs really have nothing to do with Lunar Magic... Generally, I don't like pestering FuSoYa about things, but I'm willing to make an exception in this case. PLEASE PLEASE PLEEEEEEEASE give us a better clue!  |
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Smallhacker Green Birdo SMW Hacking Moderator Level: 68 Posts: 184/2273 EXP: 2647223 For next: 81577 Since: 03-15-04 From: Söderhamn, Sweden Since last post: 10 hours Last activity: 9 hours |
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Originally posted by Atma XOriginally posted by Smallhacker |
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knuck Hinox Banned until 19-58-5815: trolling, flaming, spamming, being a general fucktard... Level: 62 Posts: 332/1818 EXP: 1894574 For next: 90112 Since: 03-15-04 Since last post: 14 hours Last activity: 9 hours |
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Originally posted by SmallhackerOriginally posted by Atma XI thought this same thing.Originally posted by Smallhacker |
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Smallhacker Green Birdo SMW Hacking Moderator Level: 68 Posts: 185/2273 EXP: 2647223 For next: 81577 Since: 03-15-04 From: Söderhamn, Sweden Since last post: 10 hours Last activity: 9 hours |
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Hmm... Maybe it could be related to date? 16:th of July... (The day after my birthday, by the way  )Edit: DANG!!! DARN!!! ********!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!! I thought that I understood it! M16 means Map16 and 7k means 7000. I tried to do stuff with Map 16 tile 1B58 (7000 in HEX), but nothing happened. :'( (edited by Smallhacker on 06-01-04 03:40 PM) |
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Proto K Repent! Level: 27 Posts: 166/279 EXP: 113908 For next: 2251 Since: 03-15-04 From: New Brunswick, Canada Since last post: 16 days Last activity: 8 hours |
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| Something that I've found, might be useful to some people: On the Main Editor window, press Ctrl+Shift+S to get the "ROM User Area Scan".  Edit: Ctrl+Shift+W in the Overworld Editor toggles whether the Overworld Editor is always on top or not. Why these seem to be hidden, weird. (edited by Proto K on 06-01-04 04:57 PM) |
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Xkeeper The required libraries have not been defined. Level: NAN  Posts: -4304/-863 EXP: NAN For next: 0 Since: 03-15-04 Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: -753366 sec. |
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Found in LM somewhere Babelfished Hmm. Quite funny to read thanks to Bablefish, but what the hell was he smoking when he wrote that?  Hmm... |
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| Acmlm's Board - I2 Archive - Super Mario World hacking - Should FuSoYa port Lunar Magic to other OSes? |
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