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1 user currently in Rom Hacking:  hukka |
| Acmlm's Board - I2 Archive - Rom Hacking - Warning |
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Dish Spiny Level: 38 Posts: 559/596 EXP: 355646 For next: 14801 Since: 03-15-04 From: Disch Since last post: 18 days Last activity: 18 days |
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| word @ Fu Couldnt've said it any better myself. Expecting other people to help you isn't any less selfish than refusing to help others. As Fu pointed out, the bottom line is having fun. If people have more fun working solo that's what they should do. |
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bbitmaster Koopa Level: 18  Posts: 98/103 EXP: 25264 For next: 4633 Since: 03-28-04 From: Knoxville, tTN Since last post: 12 days Last activity: 7 days |
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Originally posted by Bit-Blade This is the most nonsense I've heard in a long time. A skilled hacker doesn't have any obligations to help anyone, If he does decide to do it, that's generous of him, but if he doesn't, then there's no reason to blame him for it. How could you call such a person selfish? Actually, when it comes down to it, the biggest problem I see in the community these days is that it seems to be full of people that aren't willing to learn anything on their own or to help themselves. You know how I got where I am? Completely self taught. I never had anybody show me one bit of 6502 machine language, or C programming, or any of the stuff I use. You guys make it seem as if these intelligent hackers have some "forbidden knowledge" or something mystical that is very hard to aquire without those that have it spoon feeding it to you. I'm here to say the knowledge is out there and it's completely free. With that said, I would have probably been better off in learning the stuff I did if I had someone to help me through it -- and with that in mind, I am completely open to help anyone if I see them being serious about learning as I was. The problem is, in the rom hacking community, people like that are scarce anymore. Therefore, I personally am going to be very careful of who I help in the future. I've found that I seem to get in trouble when I help people, because most of the ones I run into and helped turn out to be those people that weren't willing to learn to help themselves. And I find it sometimes very difficult to distinguish from the people that are willing, and the ones that aren't. |
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HyperLamer <||bass> and this was the soloution i thought of that was guarinteed to piss off the greatest amount of people Sesshomaru Tamaranian Level: 118 Posts: 6841/8210 EXP: 18171887 For next: 211027 Since: 03-15-04 From: Canada, w00t! LOL FAD Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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Originally posted by FuSoYa Actually, you're pretty good about it. I almost didn't mention you. But you do have a tendency to withhold information and simply not answer questions when you clearly know the answer. |
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Spel werdz rite Koopa Level: 14  Posts: 79/108 EXP: 11151 For next: 1920 Since: 07-26-05 From: Murrieta CA Since last post: 8 hours Last activity: 8 hours |
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| The subject is rather two-faced, on one hand we do need to band together to learn as much about roms for a great hack. But on the other side, if we shared all the cool info the truly dedicated hackers found, our hacks would be mundane and rather ununique. The best hacks stick out because no one else can do them. Dark Daihz and his Mario Adventure hack are famous because of his ASM knowledge and the fact that no one else has the little touches on his game. Or FuSoYa's smb3 style pipes and other hack stuff. Mikeyk has come close with the pipes, but he's still working on it and hooray for him. Besides, imagine if DD shared his Warkitu or Fu told everyone how the path's worked in Boo's world. We could share specific stuff though, example: DD could tell us the offsets for what sprite lakitu throws, or when bob-ombs explode. yet even with this stuff you can't make his Warkitu (Trust me, I know!  ) which still makes his stuff original. But it will help our knowledge for other stuff that we want.Find a happy medium of "sharing." One more thing, HyperHacker, how can you call FuSoYa a "stuck up hacker?" You're calling the one man who put infinite dedication into Lunar Magic and graphics decompression selfish.  |
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ETG Tektite Level: 14 Posts: 55/60 EXP: 11348 For next: 1723 Since: 03-16-04 From: Texas Since last post: 6 days Last activity: 5 hours |
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| I don't think there are "stingy" romhackers withholding there knowlege and editors from the public and causing problems. I do see a great potintial for hackers who want to specialize and make many excelent group hacks. The trouble is that everyone needs to act professinaly and must work together effectivly to get professinal results. |
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HyperLamer <||bass> and this was the soloution i thought of that was guarinteed to piss off the greatest amount of people Sesshomaru Tamaranian Level: 118 Posts: 6843/8210 EXP: 18171887 For next: 211027 Since: 03-15-04 From: Canada, w00t! LOL FAD Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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Originally posted by Spel werdz rite I never said he was stuck up, just that he often doesn't tell people things for no apparent reason. You see something in LM or DW:TLC and know he must be able to answer your question, but he just doesn't. But like I said, he's actually pretty good about it. And he does help if you have a problem with his programs, which is certainly a plus. Some people don't even release them.  |
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FuSoYa Defender of Relm Level: 26  Posts: 241/255 EXP: 99529 For next: 2746 Since: 03-15-04 From: Moon Since last post: 7 days Last activity: 7 hours |
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Well, I won't deny that I like having my little easter eggs and minor secrets. Makes life interesting.  But regardless, I am not some kind of vending machine for people to stick their questions into whenever they want to get an answer. That can become very tiring. Remember JW? |
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Tweaker Red Paragoomba Level: 12 Posts: 55/57 EXP: 6490 For next: 1431 Since: 03-20-05 From: Rochester, NY Since last post: 25 days Last activity: 13 days |
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| I can totally sympathise with you, Fu. When people know a lot, they are constantly badgered with questions and requests... It can really get to you. The attention is nice at first... But later it becomes annoying to the point where you can't take it anymore. For those who think it's not so bad... You have to experience it to understand. |
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HyperLamer <||bass> and this was the soloution i thought of that was guarinteed to piss off the greatest amount of people Sesshomaru Tamaranian Level: 118 Posts: 6853/8210 EXP: 18171887 For next: 211027 Since: 03-15-04 From: Canada, w00t! LOL FAD Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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Originally posted by FuSoYa No, actually... what is JW? I do know what you mean. I can understand having so many people talking to you that don't have a clue that you just kinda give up on them. But when you see a thread asking for a simple piece of information, and you have that information, it's not really all that difficult to look it up in your notes and post it. I should know, I developed a Pokémon editor.  |
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MathOnNapkins Math n' Hacks Level: 67  Posts: 2154/2189 EXP: 2495887 For next: 96985 Since: 03-18-04 From: Base Tourian Since last post: 1 hour Last activity: 32 min. |
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I do tend to hoard info, but I give it to people I know will make good use of it...  Bit: you are missing the big picture that not everyone wants to make a commercial quality hack. If you want to make an awe inspiring hack that modifies EVERYTHING, then yeah of course working in teams is probably the only sane route to go. |
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BMF98567 BLACK HAS BUILT A SILLY DICE-MAZE! GO! Current list of BURNING FURY >8( recipients: - Yiffy Kitten (x2) - Xkeeper Level: 53  Posts: 1125/1261 EXP: 1094149 For next: 62970 Since: 03-15-04 From: Blobaria Special Move: Rising Meatloaf Backhand Combo Since last post: 21 hours Last activity: 1 hour |
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| Just because Fu knows the answer to something doesn't mean he is obligated to say anything. Do you think SMW hacking would've advanced as far as it has if Fu had simply told us how to do everything? He never released his SMB3-style pipe code, despite almost daily pestering (and I'm sure said pestering was a contributing factor), but we pressed onward, discussed possible solutions and did some experimenting, and--lo and behold--the system was figured out and mikeyk released his own set. As a nice "side effect," we now have a little deeper understanding of the game's inner workings. Would we have ever bothered to learn this stuff if Fu had simply given in and released his set right away? Fu is by FAR one of the least-selfish hackers I have ever seen in this community. The sheer amount of time and energy he has devoted, WITHOUT PAY, to answering questions and developing things like Lunar Magic (without a doubt, the most sophisticated ROM editor in existence) is simply staggering. How can you even begin to suggest that he's "stuck up?"  Originally posted by HyperHackerIt is if the notes are disorganized and haven't been referenced in a while. The vast majority of notes I took during LotBB2's development are useless now because I no longer understand the mishmash of "shorthand" they're written in. (Not saying Fu's notes are the same way, but it's something to consider.) Oh, and I think "JW" is "jonwil." |
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Setzer Popo Level: 36  Posts: 447/532 EXP: 290182 For next: 17928 Since: 04-22-04 From: Not Florida. because I'm going to sink it. Since last post: 5 hours Last activity: 48 min. |
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Originally posted by Dude ManOriginally posted by DahrkDaiz HAY GUYS, DID YOU SEE THAT? :O OMG IT'S ONLY A SUGGESTION STFU. and bit-blade, I would be honored to group hack the hell out of a rom with you. |
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dan Snap Dragon Level: 43  Posts: 714/782 EXP: 534516 For next: 30530 Since: 03-15-04 Since last post: 20 hours Last activity: 14 hours |
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Originally posted by BMF54123Originally posted by HyperHackerIt is if the notes are disorganized and haven't been referenced in a while. The vast majority of notes I took during LotBB2's development are useless now because I no longer understand the mishmash of "shorthand" they're written in. Indeed. All of the data I have on games that I have hacked are messy beyond belief, and would be virtually impossible for anyone else to understand.  On the topic of selfish hackers, the least selfish hackers are the ones who write the tools for people to use (like FuSoYa there). If they were selfish, they would just write the tools and never distribute them. So yeah, calling Fu selfish is dumb. |
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Bit-Blade Pixel Artist Level: 34  Posts: 347/445 EXP: 229264 For next: 24387 Since: 03-16-04 Since last post: 2 days Last activity: 7 hours |
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| Those words never left I my mouth. I named no names. I was also generalizing like a motherfucker, but to be fair I didn't say "all romhackers are selfish" or "all solo romhackers are assholes". Disch loves to misunderstand me. I thought I made myself quite clear. Allright then, nay sayers, I call your attention to a challenge. I dare any of you to prove the points I'm about to make wrong. First, a few facts. Roms were initially developed by TEAMS of people, correct? Furthermore, each of the members of this team was responsible for a specific task in the rom, sometimes they did more than one thing. Still following me? Now we come to romhacking. What we are doing is, in a sense, like game development. We are 'hacking' the roms and turning them into our own version, our own vision. This is something like game development, only most of the work is done for us. Now, I've drawn the similarities between game development and rom hackers. Let's take a look at the differences. Firstly, we are restricted by the engines of whatever game we decide to hack. Furthermore, since this ISN'T game development, per se, we don't have their dev-tools so things are generally much harder. Third, romhacking is hobby. We don't get paid to do it. We don't have any money goading us to work as a team, and even less to bother with that at all. However, our penchant for working alone works against us. We can't possibly expect to take the onerous task of changing almost every aspect of a rom in a reasonable amount of time. First of all not all of us are talented enough to do that, not all of us are coders while at the same time spriters and even music composers. One man taking on a game that was created by at least 20 or so people? It's preposterous. The point is, since TEAMS developed these roms in the first place, romhackers should ALSO team up to handle projects. These teams were divided into specialized tasks, no? Shouldn't we follow this example? Isn't it logical? I'm getting dead tired of you people ignoring or misunderstanding my points. This is a SUGGESTION. By no means am I commanding people to work together, nor am I saying that everyone who teams up will succeed. Strong cooperation like team hacking is almost unheard of. I can't see how, in any way shape or form, that this suggestion is harmful. I'm not saying exprienced romhackers need to be the servants of newbie romhackers, either. So then, what DON'T you get? |
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BGNG Snifit Level: 22  Posts: 253/276 EXP: 56579 For next: 1771 Since: 06-03-05 Since last post: 8 days Last activity: 3 hours |
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Originally posted by Bit-BladeGraphics and music are indeed done by varying people in a development project, but the ROM itself is, by definition, completely applicable to programming and programming alone. Hacks can be done without changing any music or graphics. And since there are rarely more than just a few programmers on a development team, it shouldn't be irrational to say that a few ROM hackers would be able to make hacks... even if the number of hackers is just one. I believe that a more accurate assumption to be made is that common technologies that span games could be hacked and documented, but game-specific technologies don't particularly need to be shared. An example of this is my prior two projects: F-Zero X and F-Zero Maximum Velocity. I hacked the level data for both of them, and in both, I had to crack a compression algorithm. Which one of these projects yielded the best results for the ROM hacking community? That was F-Zero X. The compression algorithm in that game was MIO0; the same one used in Super Mario 64. And there's a sticky in this thread, a BIG topic, all dedicated to Super Mario 64 hacking that wouldn't have been started hadn't I cracked MIO0. I also documented the Maximum Velocity course compression algorithm. Who's gonna use that? If ever somoene comes along who plans to hack that game and that game alone, it will be useful to them only. I don't feel that hacking teams, however, will be particularly influential. I know that I personally wouldn't want to spend a lot of time hacking a game I have no interest in. There's already enough Mario and Zelda hacking out there if I'm ever curious. But the thing is, not everyone can crack compression algorithms or what-not. That is left to but a few people who have expertise in the technical engineering of how this software is put together in the first place. No amount of teamwork will get more people to be able to do that. EDIT: The thought just occured to me that another big issue in the ROM "hacking" department is the use of editors. All-In-One, Magic Wand, Swiss Army Knife, etc... Call them what you want; those things do not make people hackers. It took a hacker to make those utilities, but things that people make with them are not original hacks. If someone makes a new planet Zebes using MetEdit, they'll say "Hey! Look at this Metroid hack I made!"... That is incorrect, since they're not the one who did the hacking. If many of these tools were readily available for any given game, then a team of "hackers" could be deployed to make a very good modification of the game. But doing so would thusly make them cease to be hackers. Therefore, I think I should bring to mind the differentiation between "ROM Hacking" and "ROM Modifying" (edited by BGNG on 09-05-05 12:03 PM) (edited by BGNG on 09-05-05 12:06 PM) |
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AP Panser Level: 22  Posts: 157/333 EXP: 56817 For next: 1533 Since: 08-07-05 Since last post: 6 hours Last activity: 6 hours |
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| I disagree with BGNG that making a new Zebes is not a hack. A ROM hack is basically an edited verision of a ROM not made by companies, and was made as a hobby. At least that's what I thought what a ROM hack was. Should you say that a new Zebes is not a hack, then any hack with just edited levels wouldn't be a hack. I would say that people who make these tools are awesome to make them in the first place, superb and/or revolutionary. | |||
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HyperLamer <||bass> and this was the soloution i thought of that was guarinteed to piss off the greatest amount of people Sesshomaru Tamaranian Level: 118 Posts: 6868/8210 EXP: 18171887 For next: 211027 Since: 03-15-04 From: Canada, w00t! LOL FAD Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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| Stop putting words in my mouth. I'm quite grateful for Fu's work, and I know he's put a lot of effort into LM (and his other programs for that matter). But that doesn't mean he can't dig up a ROM address from his notes/code and post it. I've written editors and make big ASM hacks and such myself, but when I have the answer to something I don't hesitate to look it up and post it. (And my notes are kinda messy too, but I actually bother to organize them and write them so that I can tell what they mean later. Not hard to do really.) I don't expect him to just give anyone the code for one of his ASM hacks that he developed himself, but when someone is asking for a really simple piece of information like a memory address or some such thing, and you have it right there on your HD, why not take a minute to look for it? |
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BGNG Snifit Level: 22 Posts: 254/276 EXP: 56579 For next: 1771 Since: 06-03-05 Since last post: 8 days Last activity: 3 hours |
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| Okay, enough with the "Is FuSoYa selfish or not" thing. This isn't the purpose of the thread. To define terms in order to promote understanding, here is a little light-hearded dictionary-like list of descriptions: Excerpt from "BGNG's Book of Wonderous Knowledge" modify (mäd´-ĭ-fī); v. 1. To change something. editor (ĕ´-dĭ-tŭr); n. 1. One who modifies or a software program to do so. 2. The guy who takes out all the profanity from public writings. hack (hăk); v. 1. To gain unintended access to, or make unintended changes to, electronic resources by means of low-level manipulation of data. 2. To cut violently. 3. To clear one's throat. Usage Note: Some prefer to use "hack" in place of "modify" when it comes to changing video games. Hacking is specifically tied to manual, fully-controlled manipulation of the binary data, where use of an editor will render this action non-hacking. So in short: To Hack is to edit the file manually; to Modify is to do it with an editor. By definition, as stated, hacking falls under the umbrella category of modifying. But to modify does not necessarily mean to hack. |
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Bit-Blade Pixel Artist Level: 34 Posts: 350/445 EXP: 229264 For next: 24387 Since: 03-16-04 Since last post: 2 days Last activity: 7 hours |
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| That's just one dictionary-esque interpretation of the word. Generally, to hack means to change anything in a rom. Although now 'rom hacking' may be a bit of a misnomer as what we really do is more along the lines of 'rom alteration/editing" than hacking (though there IS still hacking). It's just a generalized term, and this is how the people who romhack define it, just to keep things simple. I kind of fail to see what this has to do with cooperation in hacking. |
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Setzer Popo Level: 36 Posts: 450/532 EXP: 290182 For next: 17928 Since: 04-22-04 From: Not Florida. because I'm going to sink it. Since last post: 5 hours Last activity: 48 min. |
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Originally posted by BGNG Stop kissing your own ass. Anyways, Here's the lowdown. rom hacking - hacking a rom. it means you change it. k? k. now. you're lame - lame is you. it means you guys arguing over nothing are lame, go home. |
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