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1 user currently in Rom Hacking:  hukka |
| Acmlm's Board - I2 Archive - Rom Hacking - Warning |
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Bit-Blade Pixel Artist Level: 34  Posts: 343/445 EXP: 229264 For next: 24387 Since: 03-16-04 Since last post: 2 days Last activity: 7 hours |
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| One thing that I don't like in the 'scene' is how so many people seem to horde their own skills. The second, and perhaps bigger qualm I have is that romhackers are expected to be self sufficient do-it-all-yourself men. In essence their skills must encompass a very wide array. I beleive this is dead wrong. Romhacking is becoming more and more specialized. What good is selfishness going to do anyone? As we understand more and more about the roms we hack, our potential also grows. No one man can handle the task of changing an entire rom easily. Don't you realize that the developers that CREATED these roms in the first place worked in project teams? What romhacking needs most right now is cooperation. The selfish single minded romhacker can no longer exist. We should be HELPING eachother rather than each going our own individual paths. This should be the essence of romhacking, in emulation of the project teams that created these games in the first place. As we become more and more specialized, our romhacking skills become greater. Not everyone can be a fulltime graphics artist as well as a coder and a musician. It becomes incredibly and unreasonably time consuming. Not everyone is up to this. The single-man self sufficient romhacker should not be your model. It is no longer viable, if it ever was... In short, most of you (and I'm generalizing here) need to stop being so selfish with your own projects and band together. A good project needs leadership and other people to fill the required roles, which you can list just as well as I can. If you can't set aside your own projects for a while then you are only giving in to a weakness that has long plagued the romhacking scene. Of course there are exceptions to this. There are group hacks in progress as we speak. In my oh so humble opinion, it's the best way to operate, and highly effecient when your team members are dedicated and reliable. You will only be hurting yourselves in the end to dismiss this as the paltry ramblings of a doomsday sayer. (edited by Bit-Blade on 09-03-05 08:29 AM) |
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dan Snap Dragon Level: 43  Posts: 710/782 EXP: 534516 For next: 30530 Since: 03-15-04 Since last post: 20 hours Last activity: 14 hours |
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Totally agree. Working with other people is far better than working on your ownsome. I still miss the old days when I was back in DES.  The only reason group hacks fail is because of management. There needs to be someone who can badger the hell out of people to get work done. |
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Kyoufu Kawa I'm not bad. I'm just drawn that way. Level: 70  Posts: 2254/2481 EXP: 3008456 For next: 7355 Since: 03-19-04 From: Catgirl Central Since last post: 14 hours Last activity: 13 hours |
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Originally posted by dan...I'm not the demon you're looking for... |
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ETG Tektite Level: 14 Posts: 54/60 EXP: 11348 For next: 1723 Since: 03-16-04 From: Texas Since last post: 6 days Last activity: 5 hours |
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| Something I think might help is some group hacks where the individuals involved record there experiences working with the group. If we can identify some of the problems that most groups have, we can get solutions to the common hack-stoping ones that they run in to. It would also give and oportunity to experiment with different group structures and comunication methods. If people specialize in what they want to do, it should help them stay motivated. |
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Golden Yoshi Pokey Level: 41  Posts: 620/693 EXP: 445575 For next: 34570 Since: 03-15-04 From: Edison, NJ Since last post: 17 hours Last activity: 8 hours |
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Well we aren't really professionals here. Ever since I've been a regular at the SMW hacking forum I've heard so many "Group Project Idea" threads and I honestly don't ever recall even a demo ever coming out of one of these. Since we don't do this professionally we all have other matters in life to attend to (well most of us, or some of us  ), so it's hard for each person to get all their work in for the project. Honestly I can fend for myself considering my last hack. I was completely alone because there wasn't anyone else to help because no one else hacked YI. Of course I always asked Squash Monster for help but I never could get any help with the hack itself. And I'm really glad I didn't either, because now I have the satisfaction of doing it all on my own. I guess when you make a hack all on your own you're given a feeling of independence and when you're done you look back and give yourself a nice pat on the shoulder for pulling all that off on your own. Now that I look back on my SMW hacks and see how much help I had with ExGFX and whatnot I'm not as pleased with my work on those hacks as I am with SMW2+. Don't get me wrong, I think it'd be cool if there were more group hacks, but a lot of times people aren't interested in the initial idea the hacker has to join up or have some other project to attend to. |
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LocalH Red Goomba Level: 12  Posts: 32/46 EXP: 7612 For next: 309 Since: 03-17-04 Since last post: 25 days Last activity: 4 days |
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| I've always been a big proponent of groups, both in hacking and in coding original demos. I spent a very short time in the C64 demoscene before I moved to the Genesis and there are very few lone coders, most quality productions are done by groups. Usually, you have a designer, coder, musician, and graphician (and you can of course have multiple people doing each job). The trick is to find people that work together well. | |||
AP Panser Level: 22  Posts: 136/333 EXP: 56817 For next: 1533 Since: 08-07-05 Since last post: 6 hours Last activity: 6 hours |
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| Well, I don't really find it selfish to make single-person hacks if you're going to share some of your own hacks' features that were made by you for other people (which I plan to do with my hacks). But like other people say, most group hacks don't work out. One group hack that I know that may be working is a group SMB hack. I also know a Japanese SMB hacking group called SMB Software in which they make hacks that add features to/replaces features for SMB, and I'll assume that they do these things together. Maybe those can be influences. I may feel too shy or nervous about a group hack, though, but this does inspire me to think about making a group hack, or at least let other people do parts of my hacks at a certain time, like with DahrkDaiz's level-making competition for his SMB3DX hack. EDIT: "Their features" is changed to "your hacks' features" to make more sense. (edited by AP on 09-03-05 02:50 PM) (edited by AP on 09-03-05 02:51 PM) (edited by AP on 09-03-05 03:23 PM) |
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HyperLamer <||bass> and this was the soloution i thought of that was guarinteed to piss off the greatest amount of people Sesshomaru Tamaranian Level: 118 Posts: 6813/8210 EXP: 18171887 For next: 211027 Since: 03-15-04 From: Canada, w00t! LOL FAD Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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Forget it. I've been saying this for years. Some people are just too greedy and/or stuck up.  |
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Bit-Blade Pixel Artist Level: 34 Posts: 345/445 EXP: 229264 For next: 24387 Since: 03-16-04 Since last post: 2 days Last activity: 7 hours |
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| Could someone sticky this? I think this should always be a reminder. Projects usually crumble due to poor leadership or if the people involved aren't up to task and crumple under the weight of their own parts to the project. It isn't uncommon if a project is too ambitious. |
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AP Panser Level: 22 Posts: 139/333 EXP: 56817 For next: 1533 Since: 08-07-05 Since last post: 6 hours Last activity: 6 hours |
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Originally posted by Bit-Blade I think that when a ROM hacking group starts, they should make a mini hack first, so that the weight of the parts aren't as big. Then the group's next hacks after that get larger and larger, and maybe they can learn more if they follow that process. I believe that you've experienced working in a ROM hacking group, since I remembered you from the TEK Hacks forums. |
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DahrkDaiz Red Super Koopa  Acmlm's Mosts 2005 Best ROM Hacker Level: 45  Posts: 823/885 EXP: 643520 For next: 16644 Since: 03-15-04 From: K-Town Since last post: 4 hours Last activity: 4 hours |
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Originally posted by Bit-Blade And this is why romhackers are expected to be self sufficient. No one wants to be the only one working hard on a project for a group, so group dynamics are way off. Because of this, most rom hackers stick to themselves. I've tried to recruit a team and personally, when I get people who want to help ready, they DON'T HELP. This isn't skill hording. If people want to work with a team, they are, but seriously, working in a team is not a charitable job. Most if not all team projects still working have members who exceed in their skill and these people aren't expected to go out and teach everyone else how to do music, graphics or ASM hacking. I say get over it, it's not going to change. Great teams come together on their own, you can't force people to share their knowledge. If all rom hackers shared all their skills with everyone, what then? It wouldn't change a thing, just a lot of bickering and nothing getting done, just like right now. |
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Dude Man Koopa Level: 18 Posts: 91/116 EXP: 29288 For next: 609 Since: 05-02-04 From: Wareham Since last post: 1 day Last activity: 7 hours |
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Originally posted by DahrkDaiz Yes... Bickering... never getting anything done... yes... Honestly I find you incorrect DD. Originally posted by Bit-Blade I believe the keyword here is "should" not "should force everybody" I'm considering this a suggestion and I think you should too. I think DP is a prime example of a team. Like AP said we started out with a small hack (Omega) and then took on the whole game whilest recruting others when it became more popular. |
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AP Panser Level: 22 Posts: 148/333 EXP: 56817 For next: 1533 Since: 08-07-05 Since last post: 6 hours Last activity: 6 hours |
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Originally posted by DahrkDaiz Actually, I think that if all rom hackers shared their skills, that could really help other rom hackers with their hacks. The bickering could be from some people being rude and extremely greedy about it and not giving them credit. I would like to share some of my skills with other people, but that's just my opinion. |
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Dish Spiny Level: 38 Posts: 558/596 EXP: 355646 For next: 14801 Since: 03-15-04 From: Disch Since last post: 18 days Last activity: 18 days |
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| Am I missing something? Who are these stuck up hackers you guys are referring to? You must not mean anyone I know, because all the dudes I know (Rockman, DD, bbit, Geiger, etc, etc) are most helpful to people with questions. Hell I've seen bbit bend over backwards to try and help people. DD's released a wealth of SMB3 documentation and answers pretty much any SMB3 related question asked. I don't even know how many tutorials Rockman has written. I can think of a single person who's "hoarding their skills" as bit blade put it. There's no "super secret" abilities one hacker has that no other can get. In fact I've found that the more knowledgable the hacker the more he's willing to lend a hand to those who are interested. There's a difference between not helping someone and refusing to do all the work. The only real logic I can make out of this thread is if you have a complaint that people aren't jumping on the "hey I need a hack team" topics started by two-bit wannabe hackers that have no real skills to offer. If that's really what you're talking about... then the only way NOT to be a stuck up hacker would be to whore yourself out and do an assload of work so that everyone on the planet can have their very own uninspired hack. The reason group hacks are few and far between isn't because hackers are greedy. It's because group hacks are VERY hard to make work. It's so much easier and allows the hacker so much more freedom to do it solo. Yes they have to do everything themselves, but they can also take a break for weeks/months if they feel the need without having to worry about falling behind in the group work. But while rare, group effort hacks are not unheard of. Luigi vs. Mario hack has numerous contributors...and DXOII has god knows how many people working on it. Even I have had no trouble getting help from people with my recent projects (not rom hacking, but it's sort of the same clique). So yeah -- it sounds like you guys are complaining about a non existant problem. There are people willing to help. You just have to show that their help won't be wasted. That's hardly an unreasonable request. |
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Bit-Blade Pixel Artist Level: 34 Posts: 346/445 EXP: 229264 For next: 24387 Since: 03-16-04 Since last post: 2 days Last activity: 7 hours |
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| Disch, don't misunderstand me. While I was generalizing I by no means implied that every self sufficient romhacker was an elistist. In fact, you'll find that this is more among the fledgling romhackers, or the intermediate. Helping people is fine, and I have no problem with that, but that number is fairly few, and many of these are involved in their own projects themselves. Besides, I know bbit, yourself, and most of the romhackers in #rom-hacking myself, and I know they help people willingly, especially those willing to learn to help themselves. Don't pick at this point and ignore the merit of my message. The stuck up ones are the ones who refuse to help anyone but themselves, hence 'selfish'. The stereotype that all romhackers must be self sufficient is partly responsible for this. This all boils down to GOOD teamwork. If you have a good team you can accomplish a lot. It's like in school. You get stuck with a group project and you end up doing all the work because you're group members can't be bothered to do shit, and you don't want to suffer for their laziness so you suck it up and do it anyway. It doesn't HAVE to be like that. Don't look down on teamwork just because there are bad aspects of it, or bad things that happen in it. That's like saying "You know, I once bit into an apple that had a worm in it. It was a terrible experience, therefore I will never bite into another apple again, ever, which is better than taking that worm risk". If you know your team members aren't doing their share at all, kick them out. No harm no foul. There's a combination of things needed for a joint hack, as we've been over before. |
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HyperLamer <||bass> and this was the soloution i thought of that was guarinteed to piss off the greatest amount of people Sesshomaru Tamaranian Level: 118 Posts: 6824/8210 EXP: 18171887 For next: 211027 Since: 03-15-04 From: Canada, w00t! LOL FAD Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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Originally posted by Disch Fusoya, Jonwil, and pretty much every other SMW and Pokémon hacker. (It's probably worst with Pokémon... 50% are n00bs who don't have any info to share, 25% simply refuse to release their information, 24% are Germans who barely speak English well enough to share any info (except with other Germans, of course ), and 1% actually share their information and speak English well enough for it to be understood. SMW's not much better in this regard....Why are there so many German Pokémon hackers anyway? And why do so few of them speak any decent amount of English?  Don't mean to sound racist or anything but the proportions seem quite unbalanced. |
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Kyoufu Kawa I'm not bad. I'm just drawn that way. Level: 70 Posts: 2260/2481 EXP: 3008456 For next: 7355 Since: 03-19-04 From: Catgirl Central Since last post: 14 hours Last activity: 13 hours |
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Originally posted by HyperHackerWhere do I fit in? |
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Cat Lover Level: 11 Posts: 31/50 EXP: 4928 For next: 1057 Since: 04-22-05 Since last post: 2 days Last activity: 2 days |
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Originally posted by Bit-Blade Sticky! Sticky! Sticky! Sticky! The man speak the truth! AMEN! Sticky this and unsticky the rule of evil and cussing! AMAN! |
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KawaiiImoto-e Hammer Brother Level: 49 Posts: 989/1068 EXP: 852917 For next: 30966 Since: 03-15-04 From: In my own little complicated dreamworld Since last post: 16 days Last activity: 4 days |
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Originally posted by Kawa-oneechanOriginally posted by HyperHackerWhere do I fit in? Your the 1 % non german, knowledgeable, sharing hacker. And I do not know why there are so many german Pokémon hackers, but I am registered over at filbboards, and the atmosphere there is, how should I put it, bad. Too much noobs too stupid to read FAQs or bother with rules, and the elites do not like them, there was even a discussion to sepereate the HAck forums in a elite and non elite section. And in the here dominating SMW and ROM-Hacking, there are not much hackers, wich hoard their knowledge, but yes, they are not giving away their information, you have to ask nicly. ROM-Hacking is not something served on a silver tablet. you have to learn and try things out, else it won't work. (edited by KawaiiImoto-e on 09-04-05 02:55 PM) |
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FuSoYa Defender of Relm Level: 26  Posts: 240/255 EXP: 99529 For next: 2746 Since: 03-15-04 From: Moon Since last post: 7 days Last activity: 7 hours |
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| HyperHacker wrote: Fusoya, Jonwil, and pretty much every other SMW and Pokémon hacker. Excuse me? Did I just hallucinate helping you with that pokemon compression problem many moons ago? Or Darkflight with his SMW hack just a few weeks ago? Or the many others I've helped over the years?This may come as a profound shock to some of you, but people are not obligated to give up their time and resources to help you. This is a hobby, and people are free to spend their time as they wish. To assume otherwise is, ironically, rather selfish. ROM hacking is mostly about modifying old games for fun. If you want to do that in a team, great. Go build or join one. If you want to modify something on your own, great. Go for it. |
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