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| Acmlm's Board - I2 Archive - World Affairs / Debate - Tom Cruise =o |
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Is Tom Cruise's recent behavior acceptable?| Yes, he needs to rock on |
4.5%, 1 vote | No, dude needs to chill |
95.5%, 21 votes | Multi-voting is disabled.
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Slay Level: 25 Posts: 199/339 EXP: 85592 For next: 4028 Since: 04-28-05 From: Threshold Between Heaven and Hell Since last post: 1 day Last activity: 1 day |
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The windwaker says... Actually, that's not correct. Drugs are incapable of producing or altering emotion. They can alter mood, however. Mood and emotion are not the same thing, keep that in mind, and perhaps choose your words more carefully in the future. |
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Dracoon Zelda The temp ban/forum ban bypasser! Level: 84  Posts: 3272/3727 EXP: 5514391 For next: 147561 Since: 03-25-04 From: At home Since last post: 5 hours Last activity: 5 hours |
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| Ehh... I dunno, this never came up with me, my brother got really depressed though and suicidal and stuff. He took medicine till he was 18 or 19 and doesn't take it anymore. Anyways, every problem I've had with my own mind, I've solved it by just taking a day, sitting in the dark, and thinking all day. I don't think anyone should really talk about this unless they know how the human brain works, and can explain it, is a phyciatrist, or is a person actually effected by this. |
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Mel (USER WAS TOTALLY AWESOME FOR THIS POST) Level: 47  Posts: 829/991 EXP: 762490 For next: 3713 Since: 03-15-04 From: secure tripcodes are for jerks Since last post: 17 min. Last activity: 16 min. |
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| http://melvin.cymoro.com/img/random/cruise.swf WARNING: Explicit racial slurs and racy language. =O |
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MathOnNapkins Math n' Hacks Level: 67  Posts: 2034/2189 EXP: 2495887 For next: 96985 Since: 03-18-04 From: Base Tourian Since last post: 1 hour Last activity: 32 min. |
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Originally posted by Dracoon I don't know a whole lot of the technical side of this issue, but I know I've been severely depressed before. not to the point of wanting to commit suicide, but to the point where I would feel physically ill as a result of it. I would come home from school and sleep in the day time, wake up at night and do homework, sleep a few more hours then tiredly go back to school again. Those were dark days (months I guess), but I somehow pulled through without drugs. This is just a point of view, but you know how if you get a headache, you can either take an Advil or weather the storm without it? You have the same condition, but you just don't feel it. I'd rather take the Advil b/c the headache will pass with less discomfort. But that's a matter of 6 hours or so. When the Advil wears off, I'll know if I've gotten better or not. In the same way I suppose antidepressants and such things might numb the pain, though I've never taken them, so I don't know how they would have affected me. And how do I know how I would feel once I came off the drug. What if the symptoms where actually multiplied? Seemed like a crapshoot to me. I think I mainly didn't seek treatment b/c I didn't want to deal with my parents asking me about stupid old depression. Hence, I didn't get pills b/c of fear of stigma, though I can't say it's a fear proper, more like a sense of pride I guess. A sense that I would rather get through it myself than stoop to drugs to make me feel good. I dunno. Drugs might have made me feel better, but they probably wouldn't have helped me sort out my problems back then. |
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windwaker Ball and Chain Trooper WHY ALL THE MAYONNAISE HATE Level: 61  Posts: 1698/1797 EXP: 1860597 For next: 15999 Since: 03-15-04 Since last post: 4 days Last activity: 6 days |
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Originally posted by SlayThe windwaker says... A mood is a state of feeling; an emotion is a feeling. Drugs can't exactly create emotions, you're correct, however they can make someone feel certain emotions. Nothing can create emotions.  |
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Ramadan Roy Like Like ...Or you'll be wearing your ass for a hat. Renowned Otaku Level: 44 Posts: 658/816 EXP: 569705 For next: 41580 Since: 03-15-04 Since last post: 13 hours Last activity: 7 hours |
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| Oh Tom... Too bad War of the Worlds sucked. | |||
drjayphd Beamos What's that spell? pimp! Level: 56  Posts: 1142/1477 EXP: 1387410 For next: 10766 Since: 03-15-04 From: CT Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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Originally posted by Dogan Vader (files for an immediate end to YTMND) Not like anything coulda topped the Vader Coaster one, but yeesh. |
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Slay Level: 25 Posts: 205/339 EXP: 85592 For next: 4028 Since: 04-28-05 From: Threshold Between Heaven and Hell Since last post: 1 day Last activity: 1 day |
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The MathOnNapkins says... I must say, in case anyone else is browsing this thread and thinks this is a nice analogy, that pain killers are not comparable to psyche drugs, not in the least. Taking medication for depression is nothing like taking Advil for a headache. |
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Alastor the Stylish Hey! I made a cool game! It's called "I poisoned half the food, so if you eat you might die!" Have a taco.  Level: 114  Posts: 6812/7620 EXP: 16258468 For next: 51099 Since: 03-15-04 From: Oregon, US Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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| You're completely wrong about it lacking repeatable effects, though. Seriously, it's like you've completely ignored every double blind study about medication ever performed. And yeah, a lot of it is trial and error, but it's scientifically-based trial and error regardless of what research you've done would suggest because that's almost certainly going to be skewed by your own negative experiences leading you to disregard some of the positive information, even if you don't realize you're doing it. Because really now. Knowing a lot of people who have had psychotherapy and even being a blood relative of two psychiatrists, I can tell you firsthand that despite the negatives that psychiatry admittedly does have, the vast majority of people with mental disorders simply function better in society after undergoing psychotherapy. Certainly, there are some people who are simply bad at the art and from what you've said I can quite easily see that the psychiatrist you were "treated" by was probably one of them, but that doesn't change the fact that such treatment is effective and safe when done properly. Edit: Not that MY views on the subject aren't skewed, of course. I'm just saying. (edited by Kyouji Craw on 07-03-05 08:43 PM) |
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Slay Level: 25 Posts: 207/339 EXP: 85592 For next: 4028 Since: 04-28-05 From: Threshold Between Heaven and Hell Since last post: 1 day Last activity: 1 day |
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| Kyouji, I'm not debating that psyche meds work; they do. They work in the same way that the problem of poverty could be solved by systematically killing all poor people. I'm debating the morality of "solving" deeply-seated problems that a person has by simply pumping drugs into their bloodstream to make them, if you want not to sugarcoat it, high. Taking psyche meds is like becoming drunk or smoking marijuana. You percieve that your life has improved, when in reality you're only circumventing and ignoring your true problems. What do people most often take psychiatric medication for? Clinical depression and social anxiety disorder. I must again reiterate that there is no concrete medical evidence that either condition is the result of a mental defect that is treatable by taking medication. Clinical depression, for example, is defined as prolonged sadness that interferes with normal daily activities and lasts for two weeks or longer. Does that sound scientific to you? And where are the scientific studies and reports that prove that this is indeed a mental illness, or that the diagnosis is indeed correct? Simply put, mental illness is impossible to prove or disprove, because it relies on the abstract concept of thought. Physical illness is concrete and can be observed, proven and treated. Mental illness is nothing more than speculation. It also relies heavily on the personal feelings of the patient. If you go to a psychiatrist expressing deep depression, no test will be administered, no scientific process will be applied to verify the authenticity of your "condition," he'll simply talk with you to personally judge whether or not he should prescribe medication for you. This is absurd. Read a book on any group of diseases. The one common theme is that, among the topics discussed, will be description, diagnosis and treatment. A diagnosis is an exhaustive medical study of a patient, not a simple checklist of symptoms. Mental illnesses have no diagnosis, they indeed only have a checklist of symptoms. The fact of the matter is, many so-called mental illnesses may be legitimate, but we simply haven't proven it, and I feel it both irresponsible by the medical community and dangerous to public health to go prescribing medicine for an "ailment" you can't prove even exists. So many billions of dollars a year circulate around such scientifically-flimsy things as clinical depression, ADD and social anxiety disorder. These billions could be spent finding better treatments and perhaps cures for actual diseases such as cancer or diabetes, but instead we waste it trying to make sad people happy by drugging them, rather than actually finding out what in their life causes depression, and seeking to work with that, or to "correct" the "problem" some people have of being nervous in social situations. I don't want proof that psyche meds work - they do, as I explained in the first paragraph - I want proof that the human brain in people who are taking these drugs indeed has some sort of chemical imbalance or defect that these medications are actually treating. Until then, I'll prefer therapy over taking medication, and I'll advise others against taking drugs. |
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alte Hexe Star Mario I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night Alive as you and me "But Joe you're ten years dead!" "I never died" said he "I never died!" said he Level: 99  Posts: 4438/5458 EXP: 9854489 For next: 145511 Since: 03-15-04 From: ... Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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| I don't know. A drop in hormone balance in the brain leading to acute schizophrenia is pretty damned easy to observe and prove. Whereas something like arthritis doesn't have immediate effects, therefore there is a moral problem with treating this. I suppose taking medications for arthritis or carpal tunnel syndrome is just getting people high. Simple fact is that medicine isn't some sort of over-arching science, doctors look at things on a case by case basis. They assess the facts and apply them to examples to see what might work best. I suggest that you do what they do and rather than making an over-arching assumption that psyche meds just pussy foot the problem rather than helping it. I'll be waiting for your poof saying that therapy alone will help out my friend with schizophrenia, or perhaps my friends who suffer from bi-polar. Until I can see definitive proof that my experience never happened I am not inclined to believe or even accept your thoughts on the matter. |
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Slay Level: 25 Posts: 213/339 EXP: 85592 For next: 4028 Since: 04-28-05 From: Threshold Between Heaven and Hell Since last post: 1 day Last activity: 1 day |
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| Well, Ziff, I don't want to start an argument, but I'm not particularly interested in getting you to accept my thoughts. I've read older and current topics and have noticed that besides narrowly skirting the rules against spam, you are often quite disrespectful of other board members, so I really hold your opinion in no esteem whatsoever, not to mention the fact that you're basing your opinion solely on people you personally know, while I spent more than eight years studying the subject and many patients in college, plus having studied psychiatry since my preteen years. Read Kyouji's post, it's an excellent example of disagreeing with someone, without being hostile towards them. You could learn a lesson there. | |||
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alte Hexe Star Mario I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night Alive as you and me "But Joe you're ten years dead!" "I never died" said he "I never died!" said he Level: 99 Posts: 4443/5458 EXP: 9854489 For next: 145511 Since: 03-15-04 From: ... Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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| This is a debate, I'm simply debating my side. Which happens to be the civilized form of arguing. I should bring up issues I have had with you. But, I'm not going to bother, because like you I've formed an opinion. And let us say that while I respect your style of debate (pussy-footing I've always found is for the weak) I completely and utterly loathe the fact that you are bringing personal fact towards another user into this debate. Ad hominem I would say if this were a formal form of a debate. As for your assessment of my knowledge I would say that it is sorely wrong. Unlike many users on this board, I will go crying to mommy for knowledge when it is in my good. In this case, she literally laughed when she read your posts. She worked in a psych ward for over a decade, and also has a masters degree in nursing, as well as specializations in psychiatry and oncology. I value her opinion, as well as the opinion of my psychologist aunt who also looked over this and rolled her eyes (even at her own nephew's arguments  ).I think, you too, need to learn lessons. (edited by Ziff on 07-04-05 10:52 PM) |
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Slay Level: 25 Posts: 215/339 EXP: 85592 For next: 4028 Since: 04-28-05 From: Threshold Between Heaven and Hell Since last post: 1 day Last activity: 1 day |
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| You've missed my point. You said, "Until I can see definitive proof that my experience never happened I am not inclined to believe or even accept your thoughts on the matter." What you did with this statement was demand proof from me based solely on the fact that you won't believe me if I don't. As if your belief in something I say is precious enough to warrant concrete proof. I was simply expressing the fallacy in this statement, because I in fact hold no value in your opinion whatsoever. I've been debating, intelligently I like to think, with the other posters in this topic. You are not participating in that debate, what you are doing is simply saying, "I've seen effects contrary to what you say, therefore, you must be wrong." Which is an illogical argument. Kyouji, for example, argued that my statement, which said that since psychiatry is trial-and-error, it is therefore not scientific, was an incorrect assessment of the situation. You simply add nothing constructive to the debate while demanding proof. Which is even furthermore illogical because you cannot prove a negative, and I am indeed awaiting any scientist or psychiatrist to prove that clinical depression is a chemical imbalance which can be treated with medication. Perhaps ask your mother (who I suppose is a psychiatrist...?) to cease her cackling and prove that clinical depression or social anxiety disorder even exists, or to come up with a scientific method for determining what medication and in what dosage a potential patient needs to recieve. Instead, you choose to take the immature route of demanding proof and then referring to the fact that someone laughed at my posts, as if to show that they are therefore nonsensical and incorrect. Highschool tactics, at best. I had best take my leave of this topic, I forsee that you plan to drag it down by bickering at me. *bows* |
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Alastor the Stylish Hey! I made a cool game! It's called "I poisoned half the food, so if you eat you might die!" Have a taco. Level: 114 Posts: 6824/7620 EXP: 16258468 For next: 51099 Since: 03-15-04 From: Oregon, US Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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| Eh. There is far more proof on his side than yours, Slay... While his demanding proof and ignoring your points could be considered a poor tactic, you're rather doing the same thing, are you not? Anyway. Away from what he's saying. Regardless of whether there's proof either way that these things are a result of chemical imbalances. Regardless of whether the drugs cure such things or just avoid the problem. The treatment through medication "works" more often than it doesn't. To quote you; "I'm debating the morality of "solving" deeply-seated problems that a person has by simply pumping drugs into their bloodstream to make them, if you want not to sugarcoat it, high. Taking psyche meds is like becoming drunk or smoking marijuana. You percieve that your life has improved, when in reality you're only circumventing and ignoring your true problems." For one, anyone who's actually done tests about this will tell you you're wrong, but no, I'm not going to take that route of argument... I'm just going to say this - regardless of whether it in fact helps them or not, if people are happy, or whatever, even if it's solely as a result of drugs, they're much more likely to get "better" than if they have a poor outlook on what's going on. Regarding anxiety, if the drugs can make them less anxious then they'll also be much more able to cooperate with therapists who can help them resolve the problems that may be leading to such things. Regardless of whether the medication itself actually "treats" such conditions as clinical depression and social anxiety disorder on its own or not, it's quite ridiculous to say that they simply avoid the problem when they so clearly do make people more able to get better. (edited by Kyouji Craw on 07-04-05 11:38 PM) (edited by Kyouji Craw on 07-04-05 11:40 PM) |
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MathOnNapkins Math n' Hacks Level: 67 Posts: 2042/2189 EXP: 2495887 For next: 96985 Since: 03-18-04 From: Base Tourian Since last post: 1 hour Last activity: 32 min. |
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| Well what was missed is that Slay is not saying that psyche drugs can't help people with Schizophrenia or other types of neurosis. Slay was talking about Social Anxiety Disorder and Clincal Depression. I don't see why you went off on the tangent dealing with the real crazies, Ziff. Though, Slay, I always thought it was bad form to just up and leave a debate because you don't like the current state of affairs. Nine times out of ten people who back out just show up anyway b/c something "made them decide to come back". But do as you wish. (edited by MathOnNapkins on 07-05-05 12:23 AM) |
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Slay Level: 25 Posts: 218/339 EXP: 85592 For next: 4028 Since: 04-28-05 From: Threshold Between Heaven and Hell Since last post: 1 day Last activity: 1 day |
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| Leaving a topic is subjective. At times, it can be useless and in bad form. Other times, it is the most graceful course of action to take. Besides; this is all off-topic. This topic is about Tom Cruise and whether or not he's weird. If someone were to make a seperate topic about psychiatry, I'd gladly continue my imput there, for I do have more to say, but I feel this is not the place to do it. | |||
Grey the Stampede Don't mess with powers you don't understand. And yes. That means donuts. Level: 82  Posts: 2591/3770 EXP: 5192909 For next: 16318 Since: 06-17-04 From: Kingston, RI, USA, Earth Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 1 hour |
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| Slay, if you studied Psychiatry, why do you dislike medical treatment so much? | |||
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Colleen Administrator Level: 136 Posts: 9108/11302 EXP: 29369328 For next: 727587 Since: 03-15-04 From: LaSalle, Quebec, Canada Since last post: 3 hours Last activity: 1 hour |
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| This topic is about Tom Cruise and whether or not he's weird. And if that was the only point of the thread, it probably wouldn't be in this forum to begin with. The psychiatry issue comes as part of the package, and if that's the direction the thread's going in relation to Cruise, then you should feel free to lay out your opinion/position. |
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Thayer Fuzz Ball Level: 38  Posts: 60/988 EXP: 349428 For next: 21019 Since: 06-28-05 Since last post: 1 day Last activity: 1 day |
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Originally posted by Slay Actually, I made this topic, I am not bothered at all at the turn it is taken, Colleen is largely right as to the purpose of this topic, and again, I do not mind the course it has taken down, so please, carry on. Originally posted by Kyouji Craw Demanding proof isn't necessarily a poor tactic, in this case, it may be essential to the argument at hand. I've not read far enough in yet, still re-reading over the posts. Incidentally, Ziff is right about debating ("civilized form of arguing"). I do not yet see any case where this discussion has become a heated argument, so far I haven't seen anyone delve into the personal against someone, and it seems fine to me, so since it is the thread I made and I don't mind the turn it has taken at all, please continue your discussion, as I said before.=o (edited by Thayer on 07-05-05 09:14 AM) |
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