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| Acmlm's Board - I2 Archive - World Affairs / Debate - Healthcare Delivery |
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alte Hexe Star Mario I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night Alive as you and me "But Joe you're ten years dead!" "I never died" said he "I never died!" said he Level: 99  Posts: 4060/5458 EXP: 9854489 For next: 145511 Since: 03-15-04 From: ... Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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Legion banning people for no reason sure is fun Level: 101  Posts: 4293/5657 EXP: 10399737 For next: 317938 Since: 03-15-04 From: The Crossroads is under attack! Since last post: 5 days Last activity: 5 days |
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| *this post simulates a deletion of thread because original post was not throrough enough* | |||
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||bass Programmer Admin Level: 44  Posts: 461/817 EXP: 570813 For next: 40472 Since: 03-15-04 From: Salem, Connecticut Since last post: 26 days Last activity: 11 days |
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| Now now Legion. Rather then ridecule a thread, all you really have to do is just make the topic of the thread more clear. Ladies and gentlemen, do you support systems of social healthcare such as the United Kingdom's National Health service? Please provide thoughts, opinions, and comments. Thank you. As an added bonus, I've provided you all with a poll so we can see the overall board opinion of the topic. http://www.opinionpower.com/Surveys/182027057.html |
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Colleen Administrator Level: 136 Posts: 8545/11302 EXP: 29369328 For next: 727587 Since: 03-15-04 From: LaSalle, Quebec, Canada Since last post: 3 hours Last activity: 1 hour |
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| ...Well, at least we have a mix of what Ziff wanted and what ||bass wanted, so I guess in the end we end up with a consensus as to what the thread should be about. :\ Part discussion, part poll. Now I do hope that everything goes smoothly from here on out. |
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alte Hexe Star Mario I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night Alive as you and me "But Joe you're ten years dead!" "I never died" said he "I never died!" said he Level: 99 Posts: 4062/5458 EXP: 9854489 For next: 145511 Since: 03-15-04 From: ... Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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| I think that all the systems need a major overhaul. The Swedish system, thus far, seems to be the best. Doctors have lower wages, and can opt to work in partnership clinics. Nationalized companies help run the clinics (which, the companies being autonomus from the national health board are still regulated by government) for a profit. Which in turn gets recycled back into the system. In additional to semi-private companies which open up clinics that are payed for by the government pending review of the services. Mind you, this is the MODEL. The actual system resembles something similar to France or Switzerland. But, recentely the quality of care has been going downhill since the recent privatization of certain services. Canada's is too expensive to maintain. The doctors are given the inflated American wage (which is too high for healthcare professionals...) and the system is too stretched out due to the size of the nation. Also, due to the size and regional disparity, an open-market system or a parallel system is a near impossibility, because it would mean either the private companies allocate too much to rich neighbourhoods, and the government focuses on the cities (which in Canada traditionally have lower incomes than the sub-urbs) and this would screw over the majority of the rest of the country (ie, Manitoba, Saskatchewan, New Brunswick, New Foundland, Nova Scotia) which although they have a large central city, do not have enough population to really justify the spread of business. Additionally, the income in these areas is substantially lower than the Have provinces of Quebec, Ontario, Alberta and BC. PEI is a seperate case and a whole book could be compiled on that province's uniqueness. Either way, our system is far from perfect, but if we were to do some more fund appropriations and some redesign of the system that was outlined in the Romanow Report. The American system...Oi vey. What a mess. When my auntie moved to Vegas to be a professional dealer at Caesar's Casino...All she knew was that she didn't understand why she would need full health benefits...While working. It became apparent soon enough when her daughter broke her legs. When the bill came to her, she flipped. It was alien to her. A bill amounting to several tens of thousands of dollars. Then, it got sent to her insurer and she had to still pay $2000 for the treatment (which meant that her daughter was unable to attend college in Canada). Now, I'm all for alternative delivery methods, but an open system has WAY too many potholes. Additionally, it is far too expensive for America's poor, and that number keeps growing. When 45% of your population is uninsured...That is dangerous during times of crisis. I mean, people stand to make money off of it, but it could do more harm than good. The US system needs to have a singular body to regulate and set higher guidelines. It needs to have a regulatory body on hospitals that allows for limited regional control while still safeguarding certain "controversial" treatments (like abortion) from being blocked. The US system is simply too hard on the poor family. Plain and simple. And when prices go up, the service for the uninsured, unemployed or the unlucky goes down. Something that has to be remedied. The healthcare question is a big one. And there are many sides to it. I don't think that there should be a completely free-market answer to this, because business is out for profit. Additionally, I think that there should be a good deal of regulation and restrictions to make damn well sure it is safe. Given what I know of the Canadian system (and how well it has worked, saving the lives of many of my family members...and yours truly as a babe) it ain't all that bad. It just needs a new coat of paint and a couple dozen new shingles to replace the ones that were blown off in the last big storm. Also, all systems are about to be taxed. Boom. Bust. Echo. |
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Legion banning people for no reason sure is fun Level: 101 Posts: 4296/5657 EXP: 10399737 For next: 317938 Since: 03-15-04 From: The Crossroads is under attack! Since last post: 5 days Last activity: 5 days |
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| "Given what I know of the Canadian system (and how well it has worked, saving the lives of many of my family members...and yours truly as a babe) it ain't all that bad." Yeah, who cares that you need to wait 7 months to get an MRI?  |
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alte Hexe Star Mario I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night Alive as you and me "But Joe you're ten years dead!" "I never died" said he "I never died!" said he Level: 99 Posts: 4063/5458 EXP: 9854489 For next: 145511 Since: 03-15-04 From: ... Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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| Only if it unnecessary. It seems that when my uncle was rushed to hospital for complications due to surgery he got a prompt MRI. Or when my mom complained about gall-bladder pains she got a test done within a month Maybe these things never happened. Maybe my mom's gall-bladder never got swollen, causing now permanent internal organ damage. I don't know, though. |
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Legion banning people for no reason sure is fun Level: 101 Posts: 4297/5657 EXP: 10399737 For next: 317938 Since: 03-15-04 From: The Crossroads is under attack! Since last post: 5 days Last activity: 5 days |
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Originally posted by Emperor Ziffatine ...........what? |
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alte Hexe Star Mario I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night Alive as you and me "But Joe you're ten years dead!" "I never died" said he "I never died!" said he Level: 99 Posts: 4064/5458 EXP: 9854489 For next: 145511 Since: 03-15-04 From: ... Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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| My mother had a severe infection of her gall-bladder. It became swollen and filled with fluids. It exerted pressure on the rest of her internal organs. The doctors required some pretty extensive surgery. On top of removing it, they had to do some "organ modification" as she calls it. And do a bit of work. But I don't know. Because those darned tests take 7 months to be administered...I guess this never happened. I mean, I only got to live through seeing what the best and the worst of our healthcare system offers. |
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Legion banning people for no reason sure is fun Level: 101 Posts: 4298/5657 EXP: 10399737 For next: 317938 Since: 03-15-04 From: The Crossroads is under attack! Since last post: 5 days Last activity: 5 days |
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| If you're trying to be sarcastic, you're doing a horrible job. MRIs don't take 7 months. I said a seven month, here it is.......WAIT for it. And that's give or take. Canada's healthcare system is slow as fuck. And even when you do get there, the various physicians aren't exactly....how shall we say....the most "skilled" at what they do. If I ever get in an accident or what have you in Canada, I will demand to be immedietly shipped back to the states for competant health care. |
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alte Hexe Star Mario I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night Alive as you and me "But Joe you're ten years dead!" "I never died" said he "I never died!" said he Level: 99 Posts: 4065/5458 EXP: 9854489 For next: 145511 Since: 03-15-04 From: ... Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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| Well, you can tell that to my god-father who is a physician that has saved uncounted lives in the pediatric ward at the local hospital. How about my aunt that works at Sick Kid's in the terminal illness ward? Come on. Tell them. Please. Tell me that people who have trained for decades. Why don't you tell my second cousin who is a medical technician in Bosnia right now that he is incompetent. That he is unskilled. Please. I mean, sure, if I could talk to him. We'd probably joke about it. But he was sent to help people. Because he is unskilled. Look, the WAIT for MRIs is NOT that long. If it is deemed necessary by a physician, it is done quickly and effectively. And sarcasm? I wish. If I was, I'd still be able to play a game of hard volleyball with my mom, but you know. Internal organ damage can change these things. Incidentally, when she first started feeling these pains, she was on a business trip to Ohio for the hospital she works for, where a physcian claimed it was just a minor gastric problem. Nothing big there. No, now my mom has a shortened life span and can't do the things she loves as well anymore. I <3 the American health care system for being so "competent". 16 means #1 (edited by Emperor Ziffatine on 06-08-05 06:01 PM) |
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Legion banning people for no reason sure is fun Level: 101 Posts: 4299/5657 EXP: 10399737 For next: 317938 Since: 03-15-04 From: The Crossroads is under attack! Since last post: 5 days Last activity: 5 days |
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| "Look, the WAIT for MRIs is NOT that long" Sure it's not. Maybe if you're loaded you can get right in. And I'm sure your aunt and god-father were those things. You can train for decades and still be incompetant. Training does not equal skill. I like how you use my statement as a blanket for ALL physicians in Canada. Way to win the arguement. "Incidentally, when she first started feeling these pains, she was on a business trip to Ohio for the hospital she works for, where a physcian claimed it was just a minor gastric problem. Nothing big there. No, now my mom has a shortened life span and can't do the things she loves as well anymore." Verify this story? Because here, I can do the same thing. My mom went to Canada and she had a heart attack. She was rushed to the nearest hospital and they said it was just heart burn. She died 3 hours later when they released her. The fact is, when it comes to healthcare, not the system but the actual care, our doctors are far superior to yours. Our medicinal technology is further advanced and our treatment can't be competed with. Oh, and before you jump on any wild stories about doctors sewing up sandwiches in surgery patients accidentally, keep in mind that quacks are everywhere in the world and it's not too hard to figure out which place you should go if you want the best health care. We would be the undisputed king of all health if it wasn't for a certain SOMEONE or SOME people and their restrictions due to religious reasons. So much for being the first to clone an embryo. Nice job Korea. gg |
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Colleen Administrator Level: 136 Posts: 8546/11302 EXP: 29369328 For next: 727587 Since: 03-15-04 From: LaSalle, Quebec, Canada Since last post: 3 hours Last activity: 1 hour |
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| Legion: The only WHO health system rankings I could find were for 2000, but in those rankings... 30) Canada 37) United States I'm not saying those rankings are perfect, but if nothing else you can at least admit that each system has their advantages and disadvantages, and both are first-world, developed health care systems. The only waits I've heard of at hospitals around here are due to the fact that there's a shortage of staff - and you'll get that exact same problem in the United States in certain places, I'm sure of it. Now, either stop trolling and take the topic/debate seriously or just stop posting in the topic. |
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Legion banning people for no reason sure is fun Level: 101 Posts: 4301/5657 EXP: 10399737 For next: 317938 Since: 03-15-04 From: The Crossroads is under attack! Since last post: 5 days Last activity: 5 days |
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Originally posted by Colleen Was that directed to Ziff or me? Or both? |
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Colleen Administrator Level: 136 Posts: 8547/11302 EXP: 29369328 For next: 727587 Since: 03-15-04 From: LaSalle, Quebec, Canada Since last post: 3 hours Last activity: 1 hour |
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| Mainly at you for the last post, but I suppose it would also apply to Ziff and anyone else posting in this thread as well who wants to go down that road. The problem is that when you start being sarcastic or start going off the beaten path as it relates to the topic, then things get out of hand and the next thing you know, there's a huge mudslinging match and nobody ends up coming out on top - or in this case, ends up successfully defending his position. |
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Legion banning people for no reason sure is fun Level: 101 Posts: 4302/5657 EXP: 10399737 For next: 317938 Since: 03-15-04 From: The Crossroads is under attack! Since last post: 5 days Last activity: 5 days |
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| Alright then, I'll give you that much and agree with you there. | |||
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Tarale I'm not under the alfluence of incohol like some thinkle peop I am. It's just the drunker I sit here the longer I get.  Level: 73  Posts: 2049/2720 EXP: 3458036 For next: 27832 Since: 03-18-04 From: Adelaide, Australia Since last post: 4 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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| Frankly, I don't think America, or Canada, or Australia or wherever has better doctors than any other country necessarily. Nor do I think that any country is worse... I'm sure there's moments of quackery everywhere. Well, I don't know much about the Australian health system, but I am grateful for Medicare. I am grateful that somebody like me, with not a hell of a lot of money can go see a doctor, have scans like ultrasounds, see specialists and have surgery without it putting me into thousands of dollars of debt. Without Medicare, frankly my options right now would include: doing nothing, hoping my cyst isn't cancer, hoping my cyst doesn't burst. I don't like them options. With Medicare, I've been able to afford not only identifying the problem in the first place, but getting a second opinion when a public hospital failed to provide proper care. And with Medicare and the public health system, I will get my cyst treated. |
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Scatterheart Panser Level: 29 Posts: 208/342 EXP: 143409 For next: 4476 Since: 06-06-04 From: Sydney, Australia Since last post: 17 hours Last activity: 4 hours |
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Yeah, our Medcicare thing's pretty sweet. Cheap medicines Free checkups 'n stuff Never had a serious injury, so I don't know if that's covered. I'd imagine it would be though, as when I was like 4, I broke my hip in a swimming pool that had no water in it. I somehow stumbled home though. My friend told me to wait while he went inside looking for band-aids. But anyway! My dad had been unemployed all through his parenting part of his life, and I don't ever remember a hefty bill on his hands. |
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Ephrion Micro-Goomba Level: 7 Posts: 12/13 EXP: 1027 For next: 421 Since: 07-10-04 From: Georgia Since last post: 141 days Last activity: 141 days |
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| "The Swedish system, thus far, seems to be the best. Doctors have lower wages, and can opt to work in partnership clinics." I would not want to be a doctor in Sweden. If I studied my ass off in college for 10 years I do NOT want to get lower wages. Free market, people. The best doctors get paid the most. As long as the doctors in the US/Japan/wherever are making great dollars, the best doctors will work there. As for free healthcare and all that, it's a nice ideal when you don't really think about it. But you've got to remember that someone ALWAYS pays for EVERYTHING. |
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alte Hexe Star Mario I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night Alive as you and me "But Joe you're ten years dead!" "I never died" said he "I never died!" said he Level: 99 Posts: 4078/5458 EXP: 9854489 For next: 145511 Since: 03-15-04 From: ... Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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| Yes, tax payers. And their taxes give them the best healthcare possible. You know, like most of Europe. Or Canada. And thus far it has proven to be the best system since a certain Otto Von Bismarck instated it into Germany and revitalized a nation's economy. In fact, there is only one first world nation with a completely private healthcare system. And let's just say that most of the best doctors round the world haven't move their yet. Synthesizing the best elements of both systems is where it is at. Nationalized healthcare providers combined with a universalized system. |
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