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| Acmlm's Board - I2 Archive - World Affairs / Debate - Swedish-Norwegian centennial and the future of the European Union. |
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The SomerZ Summer, yay! Level: 45  Posts: 786/862 EXP: 618182 For next: 41982 Since: 03-15-04 From: Norway Since last post: 2 days Last activity: 3 hours |
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| Yup, today is the centennial for the referendum in which the Norwegian people declared their independence from the personal union between Norway and Sweden. Today, 100 years later, Norwegians are still generally mistrusting towards all unions with other countries, as showed by our being one of the very few countries in Europe not to have joined the European Union. The Union is currently in a very fragile state, though, as shown through the recent referendums in France and The Netherlands, where a majority voted against the European Constitution. As a result of this, euroskepticisism is again rising in Europe, and in Norway, the "no union" side grew from 42 to 59 percent in opinion polls conducted just before and just after the referendums about the constitution. Some people claim that the EU will have to undergo significant change in the future, and some are pushing for a more fedarlist solution, others for giving more power to the European Parliament (thus strenghtening democracy, but also, alas, supernationalism in the Union). Regardless, the Union will have to change, as people are clearly not happy about the way it currently functions, but neither with the options presented. I don't really hold the solution to where the European Union should go, but perhaps a discussion on its future would be interesting in this forum? (Oh, and by the way, as the Union stands now, I would vote for keeping Norway out of the EU should there be a third referendum in this country) |
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||bass Programmer Admin Level: 44  Posts: 445/817 EXP: 570813 For next: 40472 Since: 03-15-04 From: Salem, Connecticut Since last post: 26 days Last activity: 11 days |
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| My thoughts on the current problems for the europien union are: "awesome". The value of the Euro compared against the US Dollar has been on a general decline during the last 6 months, with a very step drop during the last week or so (source). Given the current rate of growth in the dollar and problems in the EU, the Euro will likley return to being worth less then a dollar. The EU is the only chance europe has for competing with the US both economically and politically. The worse it does, the lower the chance of that ever happening. |
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alte Hexe Star Mario I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night Alive as you and me "But Joe you're ten years dead!" "I never died" said he "I never died!" said he Level: 99  Posts: 4035/5458 EXP: 9854489 For next: 145511 Since: 03-15-04 From: ... Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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| Nah, as long as the US is in the state that it is in, Europe will outpace it. Simple fact, bad economy = bad politics. US ain't doin' too hot. | |||
DurfarC Beezo Level: 33 Posts: 401/483 EXP: 218551 For next: 10628 Since: 09-04-04 From: Norway Since last post: 20 days Last activity: 12 hours |
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| I don't have that much knowledge about the EU's state today, but in addition to what's mentioned here, the EU might change itself also because of the East-European countries which joined not too long ago. I would also vote for keeping Norway out of the EU, simply because we're already the best-working country in the world, as well as one of the richest (compared to number of people). And if we join, the flow of East-European workers will grow even bigger. They will still come here though; this year, they will start a ferry between the city I live in and Poland.  |
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beneficii Lakitu Level: 36 Posts: 107/567 EXP: 299656 For next: 8454 Since: 06-27-04 From: Cordova, TN, USA Since last post: 14 hours Last activity: 6 hours |
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| Emperor Ziffantine, Uh, the U.S. is doing far better than Europe (though not as well as China). Though the U.S. has a burdensome system too and has issues with budget deficits, the E.U. government is far more burdensome on the economy, and many European countries are having problems experiencing growth. I think German unemployment is now up to 5 million. (edited by beneficii on 06-07-05 09:38 AM) |
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alte Hexe Star Mario I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night Alive as you and me "But Joe you're ten years dead!" "I never died" said he "I never died!" said he Level: 99 Posts: 4036/5458 EXP: 9854489 For next: 145511 Since: 03-15-04 From: ... Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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| So, are you going to explain the US debt dumps that we're seeing and more nations like Japan and China buying EU debt? Yes, and the German economy by nature has to do that. The banking system is totally autonomus. Where there are numbers seen to us as a lack of growth (like that unemployment number) actually indicate a stronger economy. The problem is different analysts saying different things, and this sort of news is only coming now that the EU referendum failed. NOW the US is ever so slightly edging the EU out. The Italians are looking with wanting eyes at restarting the lira, and the German government wants to recentralize the banking system (meaning that they will have a bit more control) and bring back the Mark. Singularized currency slowed the Big economies growths, and killed the Little economies. Either way, the Anglo-Amero centralized world is dead. Bow down to your new economic masters. The Chinese and Indians. DurfarC, yeah you're not really going to stemmy the flow of people from Belarus, Romania, etc. into central/west Europe. They're good, cheap labourers that work hard. Companies will want them. What a sick and ugly system the world markets are. |
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beneficii Lakitu Level: 36 Posts: 108/567 EXP: 299656 For next: 8454 Since: 06-27-04 From: Cordova, TN, USA Since last post: 14 hours Last activity: 6 hours |
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| Emperor Ziffantine, I'm just waiting for the Europeans to figure out that you don't need a giant bureaucracy to have free trade. Unfortunately, many elsewhere also seem to be forgetting that lesson. I'm glad that the world has followed a more decentralizing pattern lately, with business networks becoming more prolific (and top-down hierarchies in business becoming less and less common), and with the decline and fall of superstates like the Soviet Union (and possibly the European Union, and even possibly the United States). I think the central governments of both the E.U. and the U.S. are in decline. The E.U. government is a huge, dysfunctional morass separated from its citizenry, while the U.S. government is a bit closer to its citizenry, but still a huge, dysfunctional morass deep in debt. I think we're going to be entering into an era, in which the international system is more like the 19th century than the 20th. (edited by beneficii on 06-07-05 10:18 AM) (edited by beneficii on 06-07-05 10:19 AM) |
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alte Hexe Star Mario I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night Alive as you and me "But Joe you're ten years dead!" "I never died" said he "I never died!" said he Level: 99 Posts: 4039/5458 EXP: 9854489 For next: 145511 Since: 03-15-04 From: ... Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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| You mean fraught with terrible wars, millions of deaths, internecine squabbles and terrific bouts of corruption!? | |||
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beneficii Lakitu Level: 36 Posts: 110/567 EXP: 299656 For next: 8454 Since: 06-27-04 From: Cordova, TN, USA Since last post: 14 hours Last activity: 6 hours |
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Originally posted by Emperor Ziffatine The 20th century was the one with all that, and the 19th century was relatively peaceful, especially in Europe, which was decentralized then. I think the 20th century was so violent because of ideologies that favored extensive power in central governments in order to attempt to force unwilling societies to conform to the ideologues' desired mold. (edited by beneficii on 06-07-05 05:53 PM) (edited by beneficii on 06-07-05 05:56 PM) |
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geeogree Bloober Level: 34  Posts: 362/448 EXP: 231583 For next: 22068 Since: 03-16-04 From: Calgary, Canada Since last post: 1 day Last activity: 11 hours |
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| so basically.... if we want another good war then we need a power strong enough to fight.... GO EU! |
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Legion banning people for no reason sure is fun Level: 101  Posts: 4288/5657 EXP: 10399737 For next: 317938 Since: 03-15-04 From: The Crossroads is under attack! Since last post: 5 days Last activity: 5 days |
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Originally posted by geeogree Go back to hugging trees kthxbai. |
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alte Hexe Star Mario I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night Alive as you and me "But Joe you're ten years dead!" "I never died" said he "I never died!" said he Level: 99 Posts: 4047/5458 EXP: 9854489 For next: 145511 Since: 03-15-04 From: ... Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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Originally posted by beneficiiOriginally posted by Emperor Ziffatine Wait. So you're saying that the 19th century...With Napoleon. With the Franco-Prussian war. With various colonial conflicts. The extension of the American civil war. The Mexican civil war. The Russian purges. The Pogroms... That was peaceful? |
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||bass Programmer Admin Level: 44 Posts: 448/817 EXP: 570813 For next: 40472 Since: 03-15-04 From: Salem, Connecticut Since last post: 26 days Last activity: 11 days |
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Originally posted by Emperor ZiffatineCompared to most centuries? Yea probably. It was milder then many if not most centuries. Asking for a full 100 year block of absoloute peace is just idealism to the point of stupidity. Even the pax romana had the punic wars. |
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alte Hexe Star Mario I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night Alive as you and me "But Joe you're ten years dead!" "I never died" said he "I never died!" said he Level: 99 Posts: 4049/5458 EXP: 9854489 For next: 145511 Since: 03-15-04 From: ... Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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| Um, no, it was one of the worst. The Battle of, I believe, Solferino exemplifies this. The battles and wars fought were brutal. Compared to most centuries, the "decentralized control system" that you speak of so lovingly, was actually the predecessor to the modern alliance system. You had the various protestant and Catholic kingdoms warring, rather than political allies. No, the Pax Romana was established after the Roman civil wars ended in 29 BC Iceni rebels in Britian were defeated by the Emperor Nero in 60 AD, and Vallum Hadrian erected in 120 AD. It lasted until about 129 AD. The Punic wars were in the 200 BC region, rather than you know...29BC-129AD. (edited by Emperor Ziffatine on 06-08-05 08:25 AM) |
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beneficii Lakitu Level: 36 Posts: 112/567 EXP: 299656 For next: 8454 Since: 06-27-04 From: Cordova, TN, USA Since last post: 14 hours Last activity: 6 hours |
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Originally posted by Emperor ZiffatineOriginally posted by beneficiiOriginally posted by Emperor Ziffatine The twentieth century was far worse: World Wars I, II, the various Cold War conflicts, several mass slaughters of people by their own governments, and various ethnic cleansing conflicts between peoples occured because of increasingly centralized control. Take the ethnic cleansing, in the 19th century European governments came to Africa and drew irrational boundaries, forcing different ethnic groups under a single system, while even splitting ethnic groups among boundaries. The Europeans could keep peace for a while, but their rule caused increasing tension amongst the peoples living in their colonies and you can't keep the peace forever. Eventually their control snapped and the tension was released. The same happened in Yugoslavia, as various different ethnic groups were forced under a single regime, with tension growing between them. When Yugoslavia could no longer stand, that tension was released, and you have the brutality that occured in the 1990s. |
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||bass Programmer Admin Level: 44 Posts: 452/817 EXP: 570813 For next: 40472 Since: 03-15-04 From: Salem, Connecticut Since last post: 26 days Last activity: 11 days |
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Originally posted by Emperor Ziffatine You're right, the punic wars were too early, I made two mistakes. 1: I was thinking of the servile wars. 2: I thought they were AD not BC. On the other point. I have never spoken good of decentralized control systems. I belive in centralized government. Someone else must have said that but it wasn't me. The only time I have EVER defended any kind of decentralized control is in the very narrow region of state's rights with respect to specific issues in American politics. PS: You're also making my point for me that more or less every century was bloody and that expecting a straight 100 years of total peace is idealistic to the point of idiocy. (edited by ||bass on 06-08-05 09:21 AM) (edited by ||bass on 06-08-05 09:22 AM) |
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alte Hexe Star Mario I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night Alive as you and me "But Joe you're ten years dead!" "I never died" said he "I never died!" said he Level: 99 Posts: 4053/5458 EXP: 9854489 For next: 145511 Since: 03-15-04 From: ... Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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| Oh, I'm not arguing that at all ||bass. Total peace has been unattainable, and might as well be stated as never being able to be obtained. Beneficii. Ethnic cleansing is NOTHING NEW. The Boere War of the late 19th century had the Dutch in South Africa being carted to death camps by Kitchener for extermination. The Jews in Russia were subjected to the pogroms (which actually killed more than the Holocaust did). The cleansing has never stopped. I'm not going to comment on the various Yugoslavian conflicts that have occured since, I don't know, 1400. But to say that it is due to one factor, being centralization, is totally wrong. The ONLY time where centralization has caused genocide in that region, OR TENSION, was the Powder Keg of the 1910s. In the 20th century, where the Austro-Hungarian empire (which had two capitals and decentralized regionalistic control with direct answering to the Empire =o). So, it could be argued that it was the LACK of centralized control that caused the incident in Sarajevo that ignited WWI. The decentralized government of Rwanda (two seperate tribes) caused genocide. When one side attempted to take control (as happens in decentralized governmental systems). How about decentralized Italy, that had constant squabbling that resulted in thousands of deaths at a time when city-states went at it? And notice how that ended when Garibaldi and the other nationalists brought it into one consolidated nation with a central government? Then we got to see the magic of decentralized control played out in the various Canadian rebellions (although only a few hundred died in these, and are relegated to fairly obscure references in modern culture) and the American civil war where differences between two ununited sides played into bloody conflicts. (edited by Emperor Ziffatine on 06-08-05 11:20 AM) |
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Legion banning people for no reason sure is fun Level: 101 Posts: 4291/5657 EXP: 10399737 For next: 317938 Since: 03-15-04 From: The Crossroads is under attack! Since last post: 5 days Last activity: 5 days |
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| Total peace is easy to obtain. All we have to do is kill all humans and BAM! Instant peace forever. | |||
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alte Hexe Star Mario I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night Alive as you and me "But Joe you're ten years dead!" "I never died" said he "I never died!" said he Level: 99 Posts: 4056/5458 EXP: 9854489 For next: 145511 Since: 03-15-04 From: ... Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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Originally posted by Darth Legious But what about all those stupid animals that fight each other? =o n00b |
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||bass Programmer Admin Level: 44 Posts: 456/817 EXP: 570813 For next: 40472 Since: 03-15-04 From: Salem, Connecticut Since last post: 26 days Last activity: 11 days |
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| This thread is over since someone with edit ability decided to wrongfully edit this specific post: http://board.acmlm.org/thread.php?id=12844&pl=249272 which will be left in its edited form. I've also (obviously) reported this incident of abouse to Emuz. Hope it was worth it. EDIT in responce to the post directly below this one: I find it highly unlikley that this post will get back on track but I suppose you are right in that the people in here who DO want to actually discuss things and not act like children by changing other people's words deserve a chance to speak. (edited by ||bass on 06-08-05 03:58 PM) |
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| Acmlm's Board - I2 Archive - World Affairs / Debate - Swedish-Norwegian centennial and the future of the European Union. |
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