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1 user currently in Super Mario World hacking:  labmaster |
| Acmlm's Board - I2 Archive - Super Mario World hacking - Smb3 enemys in smw? |
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hhallahh Bob-Omb Level: 38  Posts: 51/607 EXP: 365476 For next: 4971 Since: 03-15-04 From: Portland, OR Since last post: 73 days Last activity: 60 days |
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| In my own defense, since there was confusion over hacker vs. designer before, I don't think it's "stupid" to be meticulous over the use of the terms. I don't want to play fast and loose and open myself up to attack from other people again. That's all. I agree that generally, the standard is set by the editors. If most people can't go beyond what the editors can do, then the standard will be set by the editor's capacity.. because the actual hacks created will be at a standard determined by the editor. However, if there are several hacks created which exceed these standards, then the bar is raised. You said yourself that your work has inspired others to ASM hack - how would this be the case if you had not created a higher standard for others to strive for? Obviously, the hack you created must've set a higher standard for others, regardless of whether there's a tool that can easily emulate your work. (edited by hhallahh on 04-10-04 08:52 PM) |
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DahrkDaiz Red Super Koopa  Acmlm's Mosts 2005 Best ROM Hacker Level: 45  Posts: 62/885 EXP: 643520 For next: 16644 Since: 03-15-04 From: K-Town Since last post: 4 hours Last activity: 4 hours |
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| I've raised the bar of EXCELLENCE. I set the standard for EXCELLENCE. If you want an excellent hack, then yes, mine are the have set the standard. If you want to make a hack that gets noticed, then no, my hacks have not set the standard. | |||
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hhallahh Bob-Omb Level: 38 Posts: 52/607 EXP: 365476 For next: 4971 Since: 03-15-04 From: Portland, OR Since last post: 73 days Last activity: 60 days |
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| So then people who want to make an excellent hack get discouraged. You want to keep splicing terms? | |||
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DahrkDaiz Red Super Koopa Acmlm's Mosts 2005 Best ROM Hacker Level: 45 Posts: 63/885 EXP: 643520 For next: 16644 Since: 03-15-04 From: K-Town Since last post: 4 hours Last activity: 4 hours |
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| I'll agree with that. But if it discourages from striving to make an excellent hack, then you didn't have what it takes to make an excellent hack in the first place. | |||
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hhallahh Bob-Omb Level: 38 Posts: 53/607 EXP: 365476 For next: 4971 Since: 03-15-04 From: Portland, OR Since last post: 73 days Last activity: 60 days |
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| Which brings us back to 10 or 20 posts ago, where I say: 3. Designers with good potential can be discouraged. They simply don't have the time to overcome the access barriers. Only I replace "good" with "excellent", and further assert that if better editors existed, they wouldn't be discouraged. I might even throw in a piano analogy to piss off Blisseh. |
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DahrkDaiz Red Super Koopa Acmlm's Mosts 2005 Best ROM Hacker Level: 45 Posts: 64/885 EXP: 643520 For next: 16644 Since: 03-15-04 From: K-Town Since last post: 4 hours Last activity: 4 hours |
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| But excellent hackers go beyond the editor. If editors existed to make it possible for everyone to make a MA -level SMB3 hack, then I would have just went even beyond that and did something different. By letting an editor do more and more, then you prevent those who can do excellent hacks beyond the editor from doing that: making excellent hacks. If I made an editor for SMB3 that allowed you to make an MA-style hack, then my hack would no longer be excellent, and that's not fair to me, since I spent hard long hours doing the work, when some newb with little experience could reproduce with a few button clicks. | |||
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hhallahh Bob-Omb Level: 38 Posts: 54/607 EXP: 365476 For next: 4971 Since: 03-15-04 From: Portland, OR Since last post: 73 days Last activity: 60 days |
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And I said that that's exactly the problem when you have hackers that are 10 steps ahead... that those who would strive to make a relatively excellent hack would also have to be 10 steps ahead, and it just isn't worth all the effort.. so maybe they hack SMW instead.  and that's not fair to me, since I spent hard long hours doing the work, when some newb with little experience could reproduce with a few button clicks. And that's a terrible attitude, which harms the community. You've certainly earned the right to gloat.. I've never said otherwise.. but I'm saying that it will limit the potential of the community, when the great hackers are resentful of the idea of the masses being able to emulate the fruits of their labour without any effort. (edited by hhallahh on 04-10-04 09:10 PM) |
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DahrkDaiz Red Super Koopa Acmlm's Mosts 2005 Best ROM Hacker Level: 45 Posts: 65/885 EXP: 643520 For next: 16644 Since: 03-15-04 From: K-Town Since last post: 4 hours Last activity: 4 hours |
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| So basically you're saying that those who can go beyond the editor shouldn't for the "sake of the community"? That's total bs and you know it. And I'm not gloating, I'm just saying that someone who works hard should be much more revered than one who doesn't. It's like playing a hard video game. If someone beats it, then they should be more revered than someone who cheated to get the same end result. It's like those in a class room. The smart kids aren't allowed to excel because the other students are behind, so the system keeps them in bounds. That harms those who are willing to go the extra mile. I think the more Lunar Magic gets, the more it harms the community. Why? Because more and more bad hacks are made and it's hard for the excellent hackers to shine through. I, for one, will not limit myself in my skill just so I can make others feel less "discouraged". If someone is discouraged by my work, then they have far deeper issues. But for someone that really loves doing this stuff, it's just motivation to strive more. Competition produces better hacks if you ask me (friendly, that is). If everyone is ahead of the line though, there's no competition, thus, people shouldn't try anymore. Look at Fusoya, do you think it would be fair to him if he included the SMB3 style pipes in Lunar Magic? No! He worked hard to get those done and if you could do it with a button click, then demo world wouldn't be as impressive. Most of Demo World was done in Lunar Magic, but for his hack to shine, he had to go beyond his own editor to make an excellent hack. He's held back features from Demo World away from Lunar Magic for a reason. | |||
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hhallahh Bob-Omb Level: 38 Posts: 55/607 EXP: 365476 For next: 4971 Since: 03-15-04 From: Portland, OR Since last post: 73 days Last activity: 60 days |
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| Hey, I'm not telling you what you should or should not do, what your moral imperitive is. I'm just saying what I believe to be good for the community. Competition is good. But having to have huge amounts of knowledge that should be unnecessary is bad, and will discourage competition before it even starts. It's common sense that if you want recognition - which many people do - then you should try to earn recognition in a field you can excel at. But some fields aren't worth excelling at because it's too difficult to get started in them to begin with. It's a simple judgement: "Will the outcome be worth the effort?" If there are a lot of "no"s - which there will be when there are no editors - then the community suffers. It's just that simple. I'm not telling you that it's wrong for you to make really advanced hacks, just that there are consequences. | |||
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DahrkDaiz Red Super Koopa Acmlm's Mosts 2005 Best ROM Hacker Level: 45 Posts: 66/885 EXP: 643520 For next: 16644 Since: 03-15-04 From: K-Town Since last post: 4 hours Last activity: 4 hours |
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| As I said before: why do you think Fusoya hasn't put the SMB3-style pipes in Lunar Magic as a feature? I'm not harming the "community" with my thinking. This is the general cosensus amongst 90% of all hackers. Hackers outside of the SMW know that if something can't be done in an editor, the attitude isn't "it should be a feature in this editor". They know they have to get their hands dirty they're a-ok with that. Remember the "community" extends beyond this forum. | |||
Gavin Fuzzy Rhinoceruses don't play games. They fucking charge your ass. Level: 43  Posts: 24/799 EXP: 551711 For next: 13335 Since: 03-15-04 From: IL, USA Since last post: 13 hours Last activity: 13 hours |
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And that's a terrible attitude, which harms the community i'm sorry, i really hate to be blunt and again, inarticulated, but i must...: what is this large emphasis on a 'community'??? i don't see a community, i see a bunch of people posting at some message board. i see a loose assosiation of people who happen to enjoy something. if DD produces great hacks, why should anyone else care?? i can't express exactly what i mean, other then to try to view this as a community is just..plain wrong. it doesn't do anybody any good. like DD said, you hack because you enjoy it. you create something that maybe even others who share your opinion on games might also enjoy. if they do, that's great. if not, then oh well. |
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hhallahh Bob-Omb Level: 38 Posts: 56/607 EXP: 365476 For next: 4971 Since: 03-15-04 From: Portland, OR Since last post: 73 days Last activity: 60 days |
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| Yea, well, you wonder why the SMW community is the only one with its own forum? Innovation isn't bad. Someone has to raise the bar. It just can't be too much at one time. I don't mind that FuSoYa hasn't included SMB3 pipes (ignoring the fact that he doesn't use custom blocks at all in LM), because it's not like people are gonna get discouraged over something so miniscule. Now, if he left out the overworld and GFX editors or something, people might begin to get annoyed.. "Fuck the community" is kinda a valid stance, but... well, nevermind, it isn't. No one works alone. If they did, hacks would suck a lot more. (edited by hhallahh on 04-10-04 10:05 PM) |
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Gavin Fuzzy Rhinoceruses don't play games. They fucking charge your ass. Level: 43 Posts: 25/799 EXP: 551711 For next: 13335 Since: 03-15-04 From: IL, USA Since last post: 13 hours Last activity: 13 hours |
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| how does having a Forum dedicated to a specific topic on some stupid message board validate SMW as having a community? how do you mean 'no one works alone'?? and more on that, if i understand you: who was DD's partner with MA? and my only point is don't make something out of something that isn't there. it's like romhacking groups, there really is no point to them |
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hhallahh Bob-Omb Level: 38 Posts: 57/607 EXP: 365476 For next: 4971 Since: 03-15-04 From: Portland, OR Since last post: 73 days Last activity: 60 days |
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| Well, there are multiple senses of community.. to me, it doesn't really matter which one you use. You could define the SMW community as the aggregate total of all SMW hacking activity. If people are discouraged, the community is smaller, and hence it is "harmed." Or you could define it through places like this... it's pretty naive to think that if boards like these didn't exist, things would get along just fine. People pool their resources, give constructive criticism, etc... all things that improve hacks as a whole. How can you say there's no point? If everyone had to rip their own graphics, discover the ASM offsets for themselves, etc... I'd imagine that people would be worse off. The tools would also be weaker as well. Just stuff like that. You can say that the community isn't that important to every hacker, but to deny that it has an overall positive effect on hacks is really strange. |
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Imajin Buster Beetle Level: 34  Posts: 221/452 EXP: 234863 For next: 18788 Since: 03-15-04 From: Kingdom of Zeal Since last post: 39 days Last activity: 53 days |
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| I dont see why people should limit thier abilities for the sake of enouraging people who want to have thier hack considered awesome, but yet dont want to have to wrok up to the higher standards set by awesome ahcks.. And I hope you understood hthe above post. |
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DahrkDaiz Red Super Koopa Acmlm's Mosts 2005 Best ROM Hacker Level: 45 Posts: 67/885 EXP: 643520 For next: 16644 Since: 03-15-04 From: K-Town Since last post: 4 hours Last activity: 4 hours |
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| So, BMF should stop work on SMO, else people will get discouraged from his excellence. Sorry BMF, but you can't release it now, it's bad for the community And oh, the ONLY reason SMW has it's own forum is because the Rom Hacking forum was constantly flooded with questions about Lunar Magic, kthx! (edited by DahrkDaiz on 04-10-04 10:26 PM) (edited by DahrkDaiz on 04-10-04 10:27 PM) |
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hhallahh Bob-Omb Level: 38 Posts: 58/607 EXP: 365476 For next: 4971 Since: 03-15-04 From: Portland, OR Since last post: 73 days Last activity: 60 days |
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| Well, I'm glad you finally agree with my logic. However, as I've said about 23 times already, you or BMF or FuSoYa or whoever else.. you're perfectly free to do as you please. SMO will probably be pretty damn good... but it won't be unbeatable. I don't want to start nuancing with specific examples, though, after it's taken 50 posts just to kinda establish my original point. (edited by hhallahh on 04-10-04 10:33 PM) |
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DahrkDaiz Red Super Koopa Acmlm's Mosts 2005 Best ROM Hacker Level: 45 Posts: 68/885 EXP: 643520 For next: 16644 Since: 03-15-04 From: K-Town Since last post: 4 hours Last activity: 4 hours |
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| I DON'T agree with you, that was sarcasm. I think you're completely full of it to think those willing to work hard to excel should conserve for the sake of others. I also request this topic to be closed, due to getting out of hand and off topic. (edited by DahrkDaiz on 04-10-04 10:44 PM) |
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hhallahh Bob-Omb Level: 38 Posts: 59/607 EXP: 365476 For next: 4971 Since: 03-15-04 From: Portland, OR Since last post: 73 days Last activity: 60 days |
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Originally posted by hhallahh Originally posted by hhallahh Originally posted by hhallahh Originally posted by hhallahh Originally posted by hhallahh Originally posted by hhallahh Hablais anglais? And I request that this topic not be closed, because I think it's an interesting one and I'd like to hear the thoughts of others on it and I don't think a new thread would get off the ground. Just because you've run out of constructive arguments, DD, doesn't mean that it should end. (edited by hhallahh on 04-10-04 10:52 PM) (edited by hhallahh on 04-10-04 11:00 PM) (edited by hhallahh on 04-10-04 11:03 PM) |
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Chickenlump Level: 41  Posts: 134/722 EXP: 474192 For next: 5953 Since: 03-15-04 From: Columbia City Indiana Since last post: 3 hours Last activity: 4 min. |
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| It is interesting to see differing opinions, and I wouldn't mind seeing more of it, but the final decision on it being closed should be mikepjr, as it's his thread. |
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| Acmlm's Board - I2 Archive - Super Mario World hacking - Smb3 enemys in smw? |
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