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1 user currently in Super Mario World hacking:  labmaster |
| Acmlm's Board - I2 Archive - Super Mario World hacking - Smb3 enemys in smw? |
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mikepjr Ninji Level: 26  Posts: 64/242 EXP: 92006 For next: 10269 Since: 03-15-04 From: houston texas Since last post: 4 days Last activity: 1 hour |
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| Well i dont call myself a hacker i call my self an artist and a designer, and as such i can realy only do as much as a program will alow, thats why i do not have a web site to post my creations. | |||
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Alastor the Stylish Hey! I made a cool game! It's called "I poisoned half the food, so if you eat you might die!" Have a taco.  Level: 114  Posts: 409/7620 EXP: 16258468 For next: 51099 Since: 03-15-04 From: Oregon, US Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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| Hmmm? Why would you say someone who uses an ASM compiler or a hex editor is not a hacker just because they didn't program it themselves? Kinda stupid =/ | |||
Dish Spiny Level: 38 Posts: 35/596 EXP: 355646 For next: 14801 Since: 03-15-04 From: Disch Since last post: 18 days Last activity: 18 days |
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Originally posted by hhallahh This is the most rediculous statement I've ever heard in my life. First of all... I'd like to know what your definition of "godly" is. Because I'm willing to bet it matches my difinition of "competent". Any monkey can pick up an editor and make a "hack" (in quotes because you're not really "hacking" if you're using premade editors... it's closer to modding or redesigning than hacking). People seem to swoon over the people who can do things outside of what can be done in a game editor... I'll never understand that. As for competent hackers discouraging other people... that's rediculous. First of all... without the competent hackers actually doing the work to find this data and make editors for it... the incompetent hackers wouldn't be around at all. And secondly... good hacks should be something to inspire you. Not discourage you. If anything, the hoards of shitty hacks made by incompetant people are what's discouraging. Tools to "bridge the gap" being necessary? Haw. Basically you're saying people who know what they're doing should do all the work and leave a trail of breadcrumbs so that people who don't want to actually do the work can still make their own hack. That kind of community can die and rot, for all I care. The competant hackers will still produce the same hacks without all the metaphorical leeches. This is not to say tools aren't a good thing. I mean they do make the work a lot easier (and they do result in higher quality output). And it's true that better tools will lead to better results. Basically I'm saying you're not going to get any sympathy out of me if an editor doesn't have X feature and you need to to make you super-cool hack. On a side note... and this is not directed at any 1 person in particular... but I can't believe how much flack FuSoYa gets on this board. You think you guys would praise and thank him... but all I see is whining and moaning about how new features need to be added. I mean, jeez. Be happy for what you got... bitching, complaining and begging for new features is no way to show gratitude. If I were Fu, I wouldn't make another damn thing for the hacking community. All it seems to get him is shit from a bunch of ingrates. |
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hhallahh Bob-Omb Level: 38  Posts: 44/607 EXP: 365476 For next: 4971 Since: 03-15-04 From: Portland, OR Since last post: 73 days Last activity: 60 days |
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| Hmmm? Why would you say someone who uses an ASM compiler or a hex editor is not a hacker just because they didn't program it themselves? Kinda stupid =/ I'm not familiar with ASM and the like.. but that's a point, it's somewhat of a blurry line. I'm not going to define what "hacking" is and isn't.. I'll leave that to my critics.  ie. Gavin.First of all... I'd like to know what your definition of "godly" is. Godly is like Mario Adventure - something so far beyond what can normally be accomplished that other people who don't have advanced skills can't hope to match it, and hence probably won't try. First of all... without the competent hackers actually doing the work to find this data and make editors for it... the incompetent hackers wouldn't be around at all. And secondly... good hacks should be something to inspire you. Not discourage you. If anything, the hoards of shitty hacks made by incompetant people are what's discouraging. Well, so you admit that editors would have to be designed in order to have a healthy community, right? I totally agree. I also say that those editors have to have the potential to come close to what the best hackers can put out. Good hacks inspire, of course... but not many people will have the devotion to learn hex or ASM or whatever just to make a hack. That's why a hack like DW:TLC is better for the community than a hack like Mario Adventure... most of DW:TLC can be accomplished through Lunar Edit and a handful of other tools, but Mario Adventure... you can't do anything near that with the current crop of tools. Tools to "bridge the gap" being necessary? Haw. Basically you're saying people who know what they're doing should do all the work and leave a trail of breadcrumbs so that people who don't want to actually do the work can still make their own hack. That kind of community can die and rot, for all I care. The competant hackers will still produce the same hacks without all the metaphorical leeches. And you know what? That's a perfectly valid line of reasoning, I guess. I'm just saying that if you want to see a community that produces good hacks, you can't be stingy about creating tools to allow people to do so. This is common sense. If DahrkDaiz doesn't give a damn whether or not anyone else makes good Mario 3 hacks, his call... it's not his responsibility to make sure other people can do it. My point is just that if the access barriers are too high, the community will suck, and you won't see many good hacks. I'm mainly responding to the idea that having powerful tools means that hacks get crappier... of course, the average quality of hacks may decrease (although I don't think they have... some hacks may look bad nowadays, but that's compared to good modern hacks, and not the stuff coming out 2 years ago..) but there are plenty of good hackers who would never have a chance otherwise. And it's not being greedy for talented designers without technical skills to want someone to build a tool for them. It's absolutely stupid to say, "If you want to do X, then you should have to do it the shitty way that I did." It's only being greedy when you act like you have the divine right for someone to make a tool for you. Fu kind of reminds me of God. And the SMW hacking community are the Jews in Egypt. And they continually whine, "why is God being so cold to us?" Even after he lead them from slavery, etc... |
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Chickenlump Level: 41  Posts: 130/722 EXP: 474192 For next: 5953 Since: 03-15-04 From: Columbia City Indiana Since last post: 3 hours Last activity: 4 min. |
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Originally posted by hhallahh Ummm...Yes you can. It was done with the current crop of tools. It's how you use the tools that counts, more than anything. I've seen people do awesome work in MS Paint that I could never accomplish with Photoshop and hundreds of filters. A true hacker isn't bound by his tools, but his imagination and determination. |
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hhallahh Bob-Omb Level: 38 Posts: 45/607 EXP: 365476 For next: 4971 Since: 03-15-04 From: Portland, OR Since last post: 73 days Last activity: 60 days |
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| Okay, I don't mean tools like ASM compilers of hex editors or whatever that take a fair degree of technical knowledge. I used the War3 analogy cause that's what I was more familiar with... sure, if I learned a whole damn scripting language, I could make maps on the same level as other people, but you know what? I don't have time for that. And so I never bothered, and it's the world's loss. The MSPaint analogy kinda works. If you had a contest to see who could do the best MSPaint picture, and there was one or two guys who could "do more than you could with photoshop and hundreds of filters", you'd probably end up with no one really entering the contest. (edited by hhallahh on 04-10-04 05:50 PM) |
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mikepjr Ninji Level: 26 Posts: 65/242 EXP: 92006 For next: 10269 Since: 03-15-04 From: houston texas Since last post: 4 days Last activity: 1 hour |
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| Id like to apologize to everyone for starting this topic and or thread. I did not mean for it to get so far out of hand. But i still hope to see more tools come out witch use mostly point and click. Its just how i am. And im use to tools like rpg maker 2000 and 2003 and a little program known as zelda classic, and i hope that one day we can use these hack with out the use of emulator, but anyhow sorry. (edited by mikepjr on 04-10-04 05:58 PM) |
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Dish Spiny Level: 38 Posts: 36/596 EXP: 355646 For next: 14801 Since: 03-15-04 From: Disch Since last post: 18 days Last activity: 18 days |
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| Godly is like Mario Adventure - something so far beyond what can normally be accomplished The thing is... MA isn't so far beyond what can normally be accomplished. Maybe it's beyond what your average hacker is capable of... but anyone that has the drive to make a hack of that calibur (or better) is able to. DD happens to be one of the very few hackers who not only knows what he's doing.. but loves doing it. That's a great combination for any field. that other people who don't have advanced skills can't hope to match it, and hence probably won't try. It's not some kind of magical gift that only a handful of people are born with. It's knowledge... it's acquired. Fusoya, BMF, DD, everyone starts out at square 1. Nobody is an exception to that. The reason they become "Godly" is because they have the drive and are willing to do the work that comes with rom-hacking. Most hackers wimp out or say "oh, I could never understand that, so I'm not going to try". And you know what? That's their problem. If they don't have the desire to make a hack on the same par as MA... then they're never going to. They could have all the best tools in the world... but without the drive to make something like that... it'll never come to life. Well, so you admit that editors would have to be designed in order to have a healthy community, right? Yes... to a point. General purpose tool like debuggers, hex editors, etc are of far more value than any game specific editor. Good tools will yeild good hacks to come out faster. Game specific tools don't make better hacks... they just make hacks easier to make. It's the general purpose tools that make better hacks. I also say that those editors have to have the potential to come close to what the best hackers can put out Not a chance. It's not the editor... it's the hacker (that seems like the new catch phase, but there's so much truth to it). If a hacker is limited to the confines of an editor.. they'll have to comprimise their ideas to fit around the capabilities of the editor. No matter how good a game specific tool is, it will always have these limitations. but not many people will have the devotion to learn hex or ASM or whatever just to make a hack That's why not many people make good hacks. People don't seem to have a problem with learning how to use editors... editors which aren't always insanely obvious (I mean, look at Lunar Compress... not really an editor I know.. but it's a good tool. it's insane to learn to use properly, yet many people are into it). I see nothing stopping them from at least attempting to learn basic asm... because really... it's not that hard. That's why a hack like DW:TLC is better for the community than a hack like Mario Adventure... most of DW:TLC can be accomplished through Lunar Edit and a handful of other tools "Better for the community"? Maybe I don't understand what you mean by that... but it seems to me that hacks like MA should encourage people to drift away from their game specific editors and look into the more "advanced" areas of rom hacking. There's no better motivation than seeing what that kind of knowledge can do in action. If every 'good' hack that came out was made only with minimal/no "advanced" knowledge... then there'd be a way lower quality of hacks. but Mario Adventure... you can't do anything near that with the current crop of tools. Like chickenlump pointed out.... MA was made with the current crop of tools . Again I point to the catchphrase "it's not the editors, it's the hacker". There's no wall that's preventing any "normal" hackers from doing an hour of research and reading up on the basic principles of assembly. They're just too lazy to do it (or don't feel the need to, since they want to stick with their game-specific tool).I'm just saying that if you want to see a community that produces good hacks, you can't be stingy about creating tools to allow people to do so. This is common sense. I'm tempted to use the catchphrase again here. And I'm kind of upset that you used the word "stingy". Making an editor is generous. You're not stingy for not walking people through the hacking process step by step.... or for not putting weeks/months of work into an editor for other people to use. If DahrkDaiz doesn't give a damn whether or not anyone else makes good Mario 3 hacks, his call... it's not his responsibility to make sure other people can do it. Agreed 100%. Why should he feel it necessary to do more work than he's already done? Like I said before... there's absolutly nothing stopping anyone from making a hack of that calibur. Most people just don't have the drive. My point is just that if the access barriers are too high, the community will suck, and you won't see many good hacks What access barrier? The same information/tools are available to all. It's not like the 'godly' hackers are hiding any secrets from the newbs. Hell... in fact... most of them bend over backwards to help people interested. Why? Because they want to see better hacks just like everyone else. And it's not being greedy for talented designers without technical skills to want someone to build a tool for them. Umm... yeah it is. Do you have any idea how much work it is to make an editor? Obviously not, or you wouldn't have made such a silly comment. It's only being greedy when you act like you have the divine right for someone to make a tool for you. It's greedy when you demand that someone else do work to benefit your hack... when there's nothing stopping you from doing it yourself. That's like the definition of greed in my book. Most hackers are willing to share the info they found after they release a hack (provided they still have it... it's not uncommon to make a hack and then totally forget some of the changes you made). |
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DahrkDaiz Red Super Koopa  Acmlm's Mosts 2005 Best ROM Hacker Level: 45  Posts: 59/885 EXP: 643520 For next: 16644 Since: 03-15-04 From: K-Town Since last post: 4 hours Last activity: 4 hours |
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| I would also like to point out that I and us "Godly hackers" do NOT hack for the sake of raising the bar. We hack for the sake of having fun and producing a good product. Good hacks discourage people? I remember whenI came onto the scene and started to hack SMB3. I worked with everything else any other newbie starts out with. After I was half way done, I had played Acmlm's "Godly" (which is was for its time and really still is) Strange Bros. 3. Did that discourage me? No. It made me to out do him. Produce something that not even he had done before. And now, hackers like Jaspile and frantik are producing amazing hacks of games I've hacked and creating excellent hacks. Jaspile's hack started out with amazing level design, I love it because of that: LEVEL DESIGN. You (hhallahh) seem to assume that ASM hacks make a better hack. Which is complete bull. I'm sure many here will agree: level design and good graphics out weight ASM changes. People that didn't like Mario Adventure did so because of my LEVEL DESIGN. They didn't like the difficulty. They didn't love it for the sake of the gazillion changes I made. But anyways, Jaspile, knowing good and well that if he wants to "out do" Mario Adventure, he has an up hill battle, has started to learn ASM and began adding new stuff SMB3 with very little help from me. And that's the thing, he's asked for help, not for me to do it for him. Frantik is another example: Mario Seasons was on the caliber of MA for SMB1 hacks, but Frantik has burst onto the scene with new stuff to SMB that rivals what I did to the game. So as you can see, great hacks do not discourage people from hacking. All a great hack does is give someone something fun to play on a boring afternoon. | |||
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hhallahh Bob-Omb Level: 38 Posts: 47/607 EXP: 365476 For next: 4971 Since: 03-15-04 From: Portland, OR Since last post: 73 days Last activity: 60 days |
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| And you know what? That's their problem. If they don't have the desire to make a hack on the same par as MA... then they're never going to. They could have all the best tools in the world... but without the drive to make something like that... it'll never come to life. And so, you say, if Beethoven could never have been bothered to create his own piano, then Beethoven would never have been a great pianist? I'm inclined to disagree. Granted, being passionate about a hack enough to put so much work into it probably means you'll take the care to make a good hack, but it certainly isn't a necessary condition. Look, maybe my logic would be easier to swallow if I presented it in counterconditional form: IF there were not as many good tools as there are now, THEN there would be fewer good hacks (completed or in progress.) This should be indisputable. And if you agree, then you also agree that good editors often play crucial roles in a good hack. The main problem with my argument is that I can't demonstrate that people get discouraged beyond my own anecdotal evidence... because the discouraged people wouldn't be around here to begin with. I'm sure that there are a handful of people who are inspired by advanced hacks, and that's great. However, if the hack wasn't so advanced, do we know how many people would have been inspired then? I'd venture to guess that more people would be trying. I can't prove it, exactly, but anecdotal evidence can't disprove it either. And I'm kind of upset that you used the word "stingy". Making an editor is generous. You're not stingy for not walking people through the hacking process step by step.... or for not putting weeks/months of work into an editor for other people to use. I consider calling people who want more "greedy" as being stingy. Granted, there haven't been any breakthroughs recently that will necessitate new editors, but there may be in the future (with SPC hacking, or sprite hacking, etc.) It is generous to make tools. It's stingy to resent people who use the tools when you had to do it the hard way. It's not greedy for people to want something. Hell, I want a million dollars. It's only greedy for me to act like someone out there should be giving me a million dollars. It's an important difference. I'm sure many here will agree: level design and good graphics out weight ASM changes. But let's not kid ourselves... there's a degree of professionalism that is required as well. I mean, if you look around here, if your new hack doesn't have neat ripped graphics and a spiffy overworld, you're at a serious disadvantage in comparison to other hacks, unless your level design is so amazing that everyone is begging for more.. but I haven't really seen that happen. I mean... I've always wondered why Mario World hacking is more popular than SMB3 hacking. The general consensus is that Mario 3 is a better game, both in mechanics and level design. MA only makes it better. I mean, is it only the fact that LM happens to be for Mario World and not Mario 3 that makes LM popular? Why was LM for SMW to begin with, then? Anyways, I'll just summon my points up real concisely, so there won't be confusion to those who try to refute them: 1. Better tools = More good hacks. High "access barriers" prevent people who would normally create a hack from starting... better tools will lower these access barriers. 2. High standards of hacking = Mixed bag. Obviously, high standards means that people will be encouraged to make high-quality hacks. However, if the standards are too high - especially when they require abilities beyond the capacities of the easy-to-use tools - then this will raise access barriers, and you'll have high-quality hacks, but not many of them. 3. Designers with good potential can be discouraged. They simply don't have the time to overcome the access barriers. 4. These rules aren't set in stone. Some people will overcome these barriers. If you want to argue my points, argue the logic beneath my previous three assertions... don't say something like, "well, person X is making a hack, so you're wrong." |
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Squash Monster New Age Retro Hippie Togateiru Fohku Kohgeki!! GRUNGE no HAMSTER otona bite Peace love and turnpike! Level: 40 Posts: 62/677 EXP: 430507 For next: 10802 Since: 03-15-04 From: Maryland (of the Country Between Canada and Mexico) Since last post: 5 hours Last activity: 5 hours |
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Originally posted by hhallahhI think the point is more that Beethoven didn't create his own piano, so he's not a great piano maker. One person says the hacker is the piano maker, the other says the hacker is the composer. In my oppinion, being a hacker is more about immersing oneself in the guts of how something works than what one actually does, so level designers are sometimes hackers and utility makers are often hackers, but neither has to be one. |
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Alastor the Stylish Hey! I made a cool game! It's called "I poisoned half the food, so if you eat you might die!" Have a taco. Level: 114 Posts: 416/7620 EXP: 16258468 For next: 51099 Since: 03-15-04 From: Oregon, US Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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| 'cept that's dumb because your opinion in and of itself doesn't define the meaning of a word. | |||
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hhallahh Bob-Omb Level: 38 Posts: 48/607 EXP: 365476 For next: 4971 Since: 03-15-04 From: Portland, OR Since last post: 73 days Last activity: 60 days |
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| I think the point is more that Beethoven didn't create his own piano, so he's not a great piano maker. One person says the hacker is the piano maker, the other says the hacker is the composer. In my oppinion, being a hacker is more about immersing oneself in the guts of how something works than what one actually does, so level designers are sometimes hackers and utility makers are often hackers, but neither has to be one. No one is arguing this... At least, I'm not. The point I was trying to make is that it's silly to say that if someone is unwilling to devote the time to creating a great hack from the ground up, then they would never be able to make a great hack regardless of how many tools you gave them. (edited by hhallahh on 04-10-04 07:54 PM) (edited by hhallahh on 04-10-04 07:55 PM) |
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DahrkDaiz Red Super Koopa Acmlm's Mosts 2005 Best ROM Hacker Level: 45 Posts: 60/885 EXP: 643520 For next: 16644 Since: 03-15-04 From: K-Town Since last post: 4 hours Last activity: 4 hours |
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| The main point of all this arguing is that some of you take Lunar Magic for granted. Lunar Magic is everything in an editor thats needed to make a good hack. If you think you need more to make a good hack, then you, my fine sir, are a bad hacker. A good hacker focuses on doing the best he can with what he's given. That's the whole point of rom hacking at all: doing what ya can to a game given it's pre-written content or level formats, be that done with an editor or not. It's learning to work WITHIN your limits. What you do with what you are given counts for more than what could be done. And I repeat: Hacks like mine do not set the standard. Why are LM hacks have such high standards? Because it's so easy to make ripped gfx and spiffy overworlds. The editor is what sets the standard, not the hacker. Thank you and good night. | |||
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hhallahh Bob-Omb Level: 38 Posts: 49/607 EXP: 365476 For next: 4971 Since: 03-15-04 From: Portland, OR Since last post: 73 days Last activity: 60 days |
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| Well, then who cares about being a good hacker, if it has little to do with making a good hack (since the role of hacker and designer are seperate)? It's the finished product that counts. The editor is what sets the standard, not the hacker. No, the hacks are what set the standard. An editor is just a tool, it's like saying that the piano sets a standard for what makes a good pianist. (edited by hhallahh on 04-10-04 08:12 PM) |
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Alastor the Stylish Hey! I made a cool game! It's called "I poisoned half the food, so if you eat you might die!" Have a taco. Level: 114 Posts: 417/7620 EXP: 16258468 For next: 51099 Since: 03-15-04 From: Oregon, US Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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| hhallahh, stop using that piano analogy. It was flawed then, it's flawed now, it doesn't have anything to do with anything =/ | |||
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hhallahh Bob-Omb Level: 38 Posts: 50/607 EXP: 365476 For next: 4971 Since: 03-15-04 From: Portland, OR Since last post: 73 days Last activity: 60 days |
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Originally posted by Kyouji "Kagami" Craw It's not my fault if you don't understand it. No one else seems to have had major problems with it. |
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DahrkDaiz Red Super Koopa Acmlm's Mosts 2005 Best ROM Hacker Level: 45 Posts: 61/885 EXP: 643520 For next: 16644 Since: 03-15-04 From: K-Town Since last post: 4 hours Last activity: 4 hours |
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| Look, lets not be stupid. When I say hacker, meaning a rom hacker, which everyone can agree, includes those who stick to mainly editors. Thus, a good hacker is what makes a good hack. Being a good hacker includes level design, graphics, challenge of hack, etc. A rom hacker isn't defined by someone who edits hexadecimal. You missed my point about editors setting the standard. Why are so many hacks for SMW have ripped graphics and changed overworlds? Because the editor makes it so easy!  . A standard is what one EXPECTS from a hack that you're willing to make. Not the bar at which someone will call you a God for your end result. The standard for SMB3 is edited levels, change map screens and changed graphics, it's not to include omg-super-asm-hacks. Why is this? Because M3I lets you easily edit maps and levels, and that's it. Thus, it's the editor that sets what a hack should have, not the hackers who make them. If that were true, then every SMB1 hack would be the standard. There's far more small gfx changed SMB hacks then real thought out level design, but if you want to get noticed, the standard is to edit the levels, gfx and the like, because that's what the editors make easy to do. |
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Alastor the Stylish Hey! I made a cool game! It's called "I poisoned half the food, so if you eat you might die!" Have a taco. Level: 114 Posts: 418/7620 EXP: 16258468 For next: 51099 Since: 03-15-04 From: Oregon, US Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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| Oh, I understand it, alright, it's just flawed. Certain situations can't be applied to anything, and the piano analogy you've been using has nothing to do with ROM hacking, they're completely different fields. It's like saying a that saying a hamster is a rodent is like saying an eagle is a monkey; it really doesn't have anything to do with anything. | |||
Gavin Fuzzy Rhinoceruses don't play games. They fucking charge your ass. Level: 43  Posts: 23/799 EXP: 551711 For next: 13335 Since: 03-15-04 From: IL, USA Since last post: 13 hours Last activity: 13 hours |
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Originally posted by DahrkDaiz well sure, i agree with most of your points dd..but i still beleive editors and such for the most part be a tool of convenience, speed, and efficiency for a hacker. not the sole means used to acheive the desired results. i'd like to think that a hacker could edit/find level data on his own without the extra aid. but i understand that it's almost pointless to edit in plain hex level data when there is a faster and more efficient way. and a minor tweaking of what you said, possibly/possibly not chaning the meaning: Thus, it's the editor that sets what a hack is expected to have, not the hackers who make them. i still don't think that makes it what a hack should have. a hack should only have those elements which increase fun/challenge/etc what-have-you level. |
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