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| Acmlm's Board - I2 Archive - World Affairs / Debate - Anarchy: What would it look like? |
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Nebetsu Shmee Level: 55 Posts: 1086/1574 EXP: 1291130 For next: 23059 Since: 09-01-04 From: Nebland Since last post: 3 hours Last activity: 1 hour |
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| What would a world without government look like? What kind of moral structures would people have to have to make anarchy work? What kind of view on life would people have to have? What would groups of people look like? Would there be towns? Would people have to use the barter system? Would people need a view of caring about other people? Would people need to depend on others less? Now after you have a picture of an anarchist world, what would it look like for a person to gather followers to impose government to the world? How would the people feel? How would they react? Would wars break out? Without the organisation of government in the anarchists, would it be an easy victory for the people who are enforcing government? What kind of tactics would they use? How would people respond to these tactics? Discuss. Edited by Ziff:: This is for a setting in a book, so we can keep this nice and civil and orderly. (edited by Ziffski on 02-22-05 11:57 PM) |
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Prier Archangel Administrative Priestess. NUCLEAR SUB WEEEOOOO Level: 119  Posts: 5449/8392 EXP: 18790939 For next: 138352 Since: 03-15-04 From: Nerima Dist. - Tokyo, Japan Since last post: 1 day Last activity: 1 day |
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alte Hexe Star Mario I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night Alive as you and me "But Joe you're ten years dead!" "I never died" said he "I never died!" said he Level: 99  Posts: 3076/5458 EXP: 9854489 For next: 145511 Since: 03-15-04 From: ... Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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| Say hello to Anarchist theorist and father of political anarchy (edited by Ziffski on 02-22-05 10:55 PM) |
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Nebetsu Shmee Level: 55 Posts: 1087/1574 EXP: 1291130 For next: 23059 Since: 09-01-04 From: Nebland Since last post: 3 hours Last activity: 1 hour |
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Originally posted by Ziffski This thread isnt about making anarchy work in this world. It's about creating a world where anarchy works. It's about changing what humans are to make anarchy work. |
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alte Hexe Star Mario I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night Alive as you and me "But Joe you're ten years dead!" "I never died" said he "I never died!" said he Level: 99 Posts: 3077/5458 EXP: 9854489 For next: 145511 Since: 03-15-04 From: ... Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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| Well, welcome to Mikhail Bakunin who directly proposed that very idea. If you want to argue the direct ideals of leftist anarchy, go ahead. Try me. |
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Nebetsu Shmee Level: 55 Posts: 1088/1574 EXP: 1291130 For next: 23059 Since: 09-01-04 From: Nebland Since last post: 3 hours Last activity: 1 hour |
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| It's way too much to read... I was just looking for a few ideas for a book I'm writing. | |||
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alte Hexe Star Mario I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night Alive as you and me "But Joe you're ten years dead!" "I never died" said he "I never died!" said he Level: 99 Posts: 3079/5458 EXP: 9854489 For next: 145511 Since: 03-15-04 From: ... Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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| Those a few ideas. Skim over some of the bigger essays to gain a better understanding of what anrachy is before you dive in and attempt to write something about it. | |||
Arwon Zora Level: 35  Posts: 264/506 EXP: 278115 For next: 1821 Since: 03-15-04 From: Terra Australis Incognita Since last post: 5 hours Last activity: 10 min. |
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| I always assumed the ideal was something like the Barcelona described in George Orwell's Homage to Catalonia. Anarchism strikes me as one of those things that holds a simple ideal (in this case, devolution of power to a very decentralised level) as the cure-all of all society's ills but doesn't actually work too well. If nothing else, the problem of defending such a decentralised system lomng enough to firmly establish it, seems pretty insurmountable, as has been repeatedly shown from the 1871 Paris Commune onwards. If something works better in theory than in reality, it's probably not a good idea. But Homage to Catalonia seems a good place to start. (edited by Arwon on 02-22-05 11:59 PM) |
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Grey the Stampede Don't mess with powers you don't understand. And yes. That means donuts. Level: 82  Posts: 1780/3770 EXP: 5192909 For next: 16318 Since: 06-17-04 From: Kingston, RI, USA, Earth Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 1 hour |
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| [00:03] Rale9891: Think, Ziff. He's describing the setting of a science fiction novel or something. [00:03] Dark Lord Ziff: Then elaborate on that in the first post. [00:03] Dark Lord Ziff: Rather than going "OMG I DON" T WANT TO READ THE FOUNDING LITERATURE OF WHAT I'M ASKING" [00:03] Rale9891: He's calling what is really just post apocalypse anarchy. [00:04] Rale9891: He didn't go OMG I DON"T WANT TO READ THE FOUNDING LITERATURE OF WHAT I"M ASKING" he just thought it was too long for him to read and quickly respond to [00:04] Dark Lord Ziff:  [00:04] Rale9891: I never said it wasn't a bad move, man [00:06] Rale9891: it's just that he's thinking fantasy, you're thinking extremely involved political debate on the inner workings of the human mind and society in general [00:06] Rale9891: you study these things [00:06] Rale9891: he does not [00:07] Rale9891: he's approaching "anarchy" with the mind of someone who watches Mad Max and The Butterfly Effect and thinks he can travel through time in an aluminum Delorean so long as he uses some plutonium and a thing that looks like a magnifying glass To clarify, Neb, I'm not insulting you, in fact I appreciate the way you think and I like the possibility you present with your novel idea, but you and Ziff about totally different things, and his idea of anarchy can't possibly be the same as what you present. (edited by Grey on 02-23-05 12:09 AM) |
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Nebetsu Shmee Level: 55 Posts: 1089/1574 EXP: 1291130 For next: 23059 Since: 09-01-04 From: Nebland Since last post: 3 hours Last activity: 1 hour |
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| Come on. I'm not that stupid... >> Ok... I'm going to clarify what my novel I'm working on is about. This is something I wrote not too long ago as a description of my novel to someone else: Picture a land. A place quite different from our own. A place without government. A place with an entirely different set of moral standards. A place where every town is without leaders and people have no set of rules. The strongest survive and the weak drown. There is no good. There is no evil. Evil is determined by the person who is experiancing the onslaught of an opposing force. A young boy, who runs away from home, finds himself in the middle of a war. A self appointed leader is attempting to enforce government on a world where it isnt needed. He obtains followers and trains them as hardened soldiers, bent on forcing law and order on a world that is at peace with anarchy. The young boy finds his home town in ruins and sets out to destroy the person who he sees as the center of evil, when the boy doesnt even understand what evil is. On his journeys, the boy must fight monsterous beasts, inner torment, a changing world, and find the one who is causing the world to take on such a transformation. Picture this... in a land where food talks. (edited by Nebetsu on 02-23-05 12:12 AM) (edited by Nebetsu on 02-23-05 12:13 AM) |
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MathOnNapkins Math n' Hacks Level: 67  Posts: 1455/2189 EXP: 2495887 For next: 96985 Since: 03-18-04 From: Base Tourian Since last post: 1 hour Last activity: 32 min. |
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| Well to be honest, if I just wanted an overview, I wouldn't want to read through all that crap either. Besides just b/c X political philosopher defines anarchy as such, doesn't mean it has to be that. (edited by MathOnNapkins on 02-23-05 05:54 AM) |
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Nebetsu Shmee Level: 55 Posts: 1090/1574 EXP: 1291130 For next: 23059 Since: 09-01-04 From: Nebland Since last post: 3 hours Last activity: 1 hour |
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Originally posted by MathOnNapkins Now I know I'm not the only one... >> |
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Grey the Stampede Don't mess with powers you don't understand. And yes. That means donuts. Level: 82 Posts: 1781/3770 EXP: 5192909 For next: 16318 Since: 06-17-04 From: Kingston, RI, USA, Earth Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 1 hour |
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| Neb, I was exaggerating. Obviously nobody's that stupid, and certainly not you. I like the possibility of a world without government, because of all the difficulties we would lose. But at the same time, I can't help but think of the chaos that would erupt without any kind of law in the world. I'd definitely be dead, that's for sure. No diplomacy, but no regulation. No taxes, but no funding, either. Money would probably be abolished, but then nobody could pay for anything, barter and trade would break down because of a lack of work ethic and useless skills, our technology would probably regress, but that's not a bad thing either. Humanity has based itself around organizing itself and acting in large groups, government is a necessary evil to our survival. |
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MathOnNapkins Math n' Hacks Level: 67 Posts: 1457/2189 EXP: 2495887 For next: 96985 Since: 03-18-04 From: Base Tourian Since last post: 1 hour Last activity: 32 min. |
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| In my basic characterization of what "anarchy" would look like, it's just everybody acting authonomously. But there are seemingly some problems with that. Do husband and wife live together? If they do, do they have to answer to each other? And when they have kids do they exercise authority over their children. Do they feed them and clothe them until they reach a self sustainable level of maturity? Also, there are efficiency issues in such a system. I couldn't possibly produce all the luxury goods I wanted all by myself. I mean, I could, but it would probably take forever. If you want to cite pioneer families well then just kick yourself and remember that that is a family we're talking about, and I assumed total autonomy. I feel people get organized b/c they care about something enough to protect it. A world of anarchy is just a world where no one cares about anybody else, in my mind. Now if you allow the family unit, then things are a little more developed, and the family is the highest imposition of authority. So just to assume SOME structure, I'll allow the family unit, and in that case, there is no law enforcement, outside of vigilante justice on the part of individuals; for nothing in the model says you can't help who you want, or avenge who you want. Families would therefore have to find ways to protect themselves from people who would steal from or harm them. You have to factor in creating enough food to sustain the family unit. You may benefit from trade with other units. The question that arises, is that for it to stay anarchic, would organized trade negate this? I'd say no, unless the trade organization has power unto itself. I'm just thinking like a public market, nothing more organized than that. No board of directors, no one in power. (edited by MathOnNapkins on 02-23-05 05:54 AM) (edited by MathOnNapkins on 02-23-05 05:54 AM) |
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Nebetsu Shmee Level: 55 Posts: 1092/1574 EXP: 1291130 For next: 23059 Since: 09-01-04 From: Nebland Since last post: 3 hours Last activity: 1 hour |
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| I was thinking to have a whole bunch of little vililages everywhere. Each one doesnt keep in contact with any other villiage. Each villiage has houses and a school that teaches the little ones important things like hunting, self defence, and other things needed in an anarchist world. There is a strong urge to make sure that the young people are taught how to survive so that they can do so. Disturbances within the villiages, such as stealing are not handled at all by an authority. If someone steals from you, you kill them. It's simple. But people have a basic understanding to not do so, so this isnt usually a problem. Something like that. |
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alte Hexe Star Mario I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night Alive as you and me "But Joe you're ten years dead!" "I never died" said he "I never died!" said he Level: 99 Posts: 3081/5458 EXP: 9854489 For next: 145511 Since: 03-15-04 From: ... Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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Originally posted by MathOnNapkins Math...Just a question. You do know that Bakunin has morphed the current idea of political anarchism into what it is today? One of my big papers for this year was on him and his ideas. I'm not an expert, but he is a person I've read alot on. The unfortunate thing about anarchy and the political ideas is you have to read through pages and pages and books and books of information or sit through long talks about it to understand. Otherwise your lost. I'm not saying this as a belittling thing, but it is a very profound subject in modern "liberal" politics. Please Neb, before you start your book, you should know that most of these concepts have been covered by a man called Leonid Tolstoy who wrote a book exemplifying indvidualism and anarchy called The Cossacks. Again, with a subject of this size, it is advisable to be well read before jumping and starting a book. At least be original in your presentation of ideas. |
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MathOnNapkins Math n' Hacks Level: 67 Posts: 1460/2189 EXP: 2495887 For next: 96985 Since: 03-18-04 From: Base Tourian Since last post: 1 hour Last activity: 32 min. |
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| The unfortunate thing about anarchy and the political ideas is you have to read through pages and pages and books and books of information or sit through long talks about it to understand. Number one reason I don't care to read about such political philosophies as this, communism, socialism, etc. And no, I've never even heard of this guy. Nor do I care, nor will I ever read his works, unless I get the inclination. If I started a thread on mathematical analysis would you want me to talk about it in an intuitive way, or to refer you to works by Gauss, Legendre, or maybe Poincare or Galois? Chances are you'll die of boredom or rip your hair out trying to understand it. Appended: I hope I am not giving the impression that I advocate massive ignorance in discussion, but I feel that if anyone here knows anything about the subject at hand, they're better off giving their own synopsis rather than referencing treatises no one will probably end up reading. Of course, Nebetsu, if you want to write a book and don't want to look like a total idiot, you're better off at least doing some form of independent research, even if you don't end up using it. I would suggest going to Barnes and Noble or the library and paging through some books on the subject if you find Ziff's references unpalatable. (edited by MathOnNapkins on 02-23-05 01:32 AM) (edited by MathOnNapkins on 02-23-05 01:36 AM) |
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Banedon Giant Red Paratroopa Level: 55 Posts: 963/1408 EXP: 1291380 For next: 22809 Since: 03-15-04 From: Michigan Since last post: 101 days Last activity: 90 days |
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| Anarchy would not work in real life...everyone would just be killing each other and stealing from each other. Nobody and nothing would be safe. | |||
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The SomerZ Summer, yay! Level: 45  Posts: 629/862 EXP: 618182 For next: 41982 Since: 03-15-04 From: Norway Since last post: 2 days Last activity: 3 hours |
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| Talking about Anarchy without knowing Bakunin is like talking about Communism without knowing Marx. He was the "founder" of anarchistic thought, and thus is someone you should have a basic knowledge about to discuss anarchy. That being said, I don't hold much knowledge about Bakunin beyond the basics, but anarchism is one of the political movements I know the least about, as well. I still feel I may have some thoughts that can contribute, based on the little I do know. The way I see it, anarchy works as a basis for a new kind of government, but nothing more. To have a change of system, you would need a revolution (at least if you want to do things swiftly), which would bring society to a state of anarchy. Maintaining a stable situation of anarchy would not work, however, as certain groups would gather quite quickly and decide how things should be done. That would be your first signs of a new government right there. After a longer (or shorter) period of turmoil and unstability, one group will have gained a certain amount of control, and will then start to dictate rules, this will go on, until you again have a society with rules, and a ruling elite. The system of government in the new society depends heavily on the group of people that manage to win control. The only way I see that you can maintain a true state of anarchy is by having a strong, ruling, powerful elite with the sole purpose of keeping people from gaining any power, and keeping rules from actually being enforced, but that wouldn't really be anarchy, now, would it? |
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ThePartisans Newcomer Level: 2 Posts: 1/1 EXP: 15 For next: 31 Since: 02-25-05 Since last post: 250 days Last activity: 249 days |
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In theory, anarchy is the perfect substitution for esatblishment in a nutopia-like world, which is unfortunatly, not what we have at this moment. When we first arrived here, anarchy was our "Establishment" (although I know it is kind of an oxymoron) because we weren't "evolved" industrially or socially even. but once lust/hate/greed became aquainted with our nature, a form of establishment was in need to be in place. Although anarchism is usually assosiated with politics, it takes a much deeper stance with philosophy. anarchy is the freedom of mind and soul without the interruptions of others. I, myself an an anarchist for the philosophical and political standpoint. I do what I want (Not ment to sound immature) and allow others to do the same. Anarchism ideals are the best ideals that have ever come about, the only problem is that we have become a very unitelligent species that have chosen to have one voice by someone who sounds the most articulate or smart on the television who also has the higher power over us. I do not believe in a hierrarchy system because of this and therefore I believe in anarchist ideals. |
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